2g limits and potential

[DSMopar]

I'm going to be looking at a 95 talon AWD pretty soon here... I just barelly missed out on a nice 91 for cheap . Basically I want a DD in the 13s for cheap... I've been trying to get direct information but so far i've just got ambiguous answers. There's plenty of threads on mods but no one tells you what the mods will net you 1/4 mile wise...

So... i've heard the 2g's have a weak bottom end and the turbo is smaller than the 1gs... What is the max you can get out of the stock 2g turbo? Can I net 13s with the stock turbo, head, and cams... and keep it smog legal (CA)? And if so what's the fastest I can go with the stock turbo, head and cams?

I've read a little on crank walk, am I to understand the crank thrust bearing surface wears out? If so i'll bring a large screwdriver with me...

 

[DSMopar]

well la di da, why's it supposedly not used ?

 

[Flash]

I use my CAS. I haven't heard of anyone else not using theirs.

 

[gsxeclipse97]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks so. The T25 is a great turbo. I did a lot with mine and had great fun with it. I didn't fully appreciate it until I "upgraded", thinking I would bring the fun to a whole new level. For the responsible purely-street driver, upgrading is pointless. You give up super-fast spool for better top end that you'll not often use.

Well that depends on what you upgrade to. I went to a 14b and it is almost the same as the t25 but with more up top. Next turob is the e316g and thats as far as im going, I'll still have the quick spool and lots up top so no worries there. I do remember the days of the t25 though when i first bought the car. It put me in my seat cause i wasn't expecting it to have that much power.

 

[fastfour]

Look up this name: Joe Bucci

The 14b is capable.

Its all in the tune, the 2g ecu fights you like crazy. This time around w/ my 2g im going with a diff. ecu. The DSM link seems OK but for the money you can almost buy a standalone.

 

[kenamond]

The early 2gs have the CAS on the drivers side in a major-PITA location (under the intake cam gear). The later 2gs have it on the passenger side like the 1gs where you can change it in a minute. I'm not sure what's on your car, but if it's the CAS, the car won't run with it unplugged. It tells the ECU where the motor is for timing, so it'd be kinda like pulling the distributor cap off an older car. You can check out the link below for more info.

http://members.shaw.ca/dsm.1000q/Engineprimer/2G/index.htm

The FPB28 is probably the best option for passing inspection, but it's more expensive than a new e3b16g. The 14b and e3b16g both require an install kit that will add $150 or so to the price. Another option is to rebuild the T25 or replace it with a used/rebuilt T25, but I agree that you'll have an easier time reaching your goals with an upgraded turbo. Since you have to drop the failing turbo, you might want to consider putting what you really want to end up with back on so you don't have to do it twice. It sounds like price will be your biggest consideration.

But if you want to hit 300hp, I think you're going to have to go beyond the "hundreds of dollars" range. I list some parts below with rough price estimates.

Air filter upgrade: $60-$200
Intake pipe upgrade: $5-$150
UICP upgrade: $150
1g BOV: $25
MBC: $15-$50
Boost gauge: $50 to $200
FP rewire: $30
Turbo+install kit: $300-$800
Logger: $100-$150

That's sort of bare minimum IMO. Folks may quibble about the prices there, but it should give you an idea. Some of the cheap-side prices are for do-it-yourself type things like hacking the snorkel part of the stock intake pipe out and putting a solid pipe in or making your own ball+spring MBC.

Then you have all the other potential replacement costs that you find out about as part of normal maintenance like gaskets, broken bolts, leaking injector insulators and/or PCV valve. And if you want to do some porting work or have it done, that'll add to the cost unless you do it yourself and have the tools already (still probably have to drop $40+ on burrs). I'd add atleast $300 more for all of that stuff.

 

[DSMopar]

$200 for a boost gauge? No offense but only retards buy gauges that expensive . I'll stick to sport comp autometer thanx . I think the only regular dollar thing i'd buy is the turbo, and maybe some of the intake piping... most of the exhaust can be fabbed by a muffler shop, maybe the O2 housing i'll buy.

So the T28 sounds appealing, direct bolt-on is nice . What's the limits of that turbo? Anyone know the stock injector size (in lbs/hr)?

Is the 14b the stock 1g turbo or something?

 

[h8r]

The 14B is the Stock 5 spd turbo, the automatics used a smaller version. The T-28 is a bolt on.. But IMO e316G is a better choice.. You could almost get a 50 trim for the price of a t-28. Also, you sound like your not scared to work on it, and have a decent amount of understanding as to what you want... It is not hard to buy an instal kit, BRAND new EVO3 and still be less of a cost then th T-28 ( which is less capable of the two IMO). Also I don't like the idea of jammin a larger compr. wheel in a turbo as small as a t-25.. I would worry about the housing not flowing to the wheels potential. Either Turbo(t-28 ,evo3) should have at least a rewired pump and 550 cc injectors..Would it be possible to get it done on stock fuel..? Yea... Would it be Safe?.. Not really. Hope this helps

 

[99gst_racer]

$200 for a boost gauge? No offense but only retards buy gauges that expensive .

It's all about personal preference. Some people prefer a full-sweep electric gauge as apposed to a mechanical gauge. And they can cost that much.

Anyone know the stock injector size (in lbs/hr)?

Without getting too in depth with specific gravity's of fuel, it's approximately 46 lbs/hr.

Is the 14b the stock 1g turbo or something?

Yup, it's OE for all 1G turbo manual trans cars. It's also one of the cheapest and best "bang for the buck" upgrades you can do for a stock 2G. A decent used 14b can usually be had for $50-$150 depending on overall condition.

 

[DSMopar]

lawls deleted my post?

Here's a good question, what kind of outlet flange do the other turbo's use? Will the T25/28 o2 housing work with the others?

 

[99gst_racer]

Here's a good question, what kind of outlet flange do the other turbo's use? Will the T25/28 o2 housing work with the others?

The T25/28, 14B, and all 16G variants will all use the same O2 housing.

 

[kenamond]

What I listed is still going to cost you $735 if you get the cheapest of everything. And that won't get you to 300whp. You'll also need larger injectors, larger fuel pump, AFPR, and something to manage the extra fuel (SAFC, DSMlink, chipped ECU). But you'll still need everything in that list whether you go snazzy or cheap. Oh, and you'll probably want something to mount that boost gauge into - add another $45 for that.

By the way, I have the $50 Autometer boost gauge. I like it. I have a mix of nice and moderate. It's your dime.

The FPB28 spools faster than the e3b16g, but it flows a bit less. Add up the *total* cost of both before you make your decision (and don't forget about the 14b option). You'll have to exchange your T25 core for the FPB28. Don't forget to add on the price of the install kit for the e3b16g.

Here's a picture of my T25 (the dirty one) next to the FPB28 (the shiney one). They aren't identical on the outside, but I'd be astounded if an inspector could tell the difference.

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[DSMopar]

So the T28 is basically a T25 with a different cold side?

What exactly is so different about the 16g?

45$ for a gauge pod? Not likely... there's cheaper methods (free) . Used 190-255 lph fuel pump $40-50. Used boost gauge $25-35. Everything can be scrounged .

 

[luvmygst]

450cc injectors come out to about 43 lbs/hr(actually 42.851) I am actually going run a set in my twin turbo mustang I am in the process of making an injector driver box for them now because the mustang uses high impedance injectors and mitsu uses low impedance.

edit: 99gst racer how did you come up with 46 lbs/hr?

 

[99gst_racer]

450cc injectors come out to about 43 lbs/hr(actually 42.851) I am actually going run a set in my twin turbo mustang I am in the process of making an injector driver box for them now because the mustang uses high impedance injectors and mitsu uses low impedance.

edit: 99gst racer how did you come up with 46 lbs/hr?

I used the basic rule of thumb that most injectors companys use. It's not exact, but it's puts it pretty close.

[(lbs./hr) x 60] / 6.177 = cc/min

 

[daren_p]

So the T28 is basically a T25 with a different cold side?

What exactly is so different about the 16g?

45$ for a gauge pod? Not likely... there's cheaper methods (free) . Used 190-255 lph fuel pump $40-50. Used boost gauge $25-35. Everything can be scrounged .

kenamond, what are the external differences of the T25 vs the T28, I believe externally they are the exact same?

DSMopar, No the T28 uses the same compressor cover & turbine housing as the T25 but has been modified to accept both a larger compressor & turbine wheel. It will greatly outflow the tiny T25, that can barely sustain the factory boost of around 12psi. Upping the boost even minimal amounts on the puny T25 & you'll find it won't be able to keep up with the flow demand & be back down to 12 psi by redline. Most people when their still on the T25 up the boost to 15-16 psi for a nice mid range (with proper supporting mods of course), as the boost will still drop off in the upper rpms but this really help out mid range power.

The T25 is good for about 250 crank hp, unless you really try to work it (which will more then likely lead to a quick death). With the externally the same appearing T28, these numbers can jump to the 300 whp range, without a tonn of $$$. Because of the tiny sized turbo on the 2g's, most upgrade to the 14b from the 1g's (larger turbo) or a 16g sized turbo (abit larger again) fairly quickly & don't push the T25. Though with the proper supporting mods, 13's shouldn't be an issue.

Just for reference, the general power ability of the stock 2g bottom end is generally stated around 400 whp & still being reliabile. Personally I see 340-370 whp (depending on boost/tune) daily & other locals around here have made over 400 awhp on their daily tune, still on a stock 2g bottom end (tested on an awd Mustang Dyno, so numbers tend to read something like 10-15% lower then on a dynojet, etc).

 

[DSMopar]

Well the bare minimum is high 13s @ at least 98 MPH.... it'd be nice if I could hit a mid-low 13 @101-105... What will the T28 support boost-wize? Anyone have the compressor maps of the 14b, T28 and 16G?

 

[DSMopar]

ah I found them, unfortunately the T28 is all but illegable.... plus some of the flow rates aren't even labeled for units

 

[daren_p]

Well the bare minimum is high 13s @ at least 98 MPH.... it'd be nice if I could hit a mid-low 13 @101-105... What will the T28 support boost-wize? Anyone have the compressor maps of the 14b, T28 and 16G?

The T28 will support similar results to 16g sized mitsu turbos. The 16-20 psi range will suite it nicely & while probably getting out of it peak effiency range, higher boost can still probably be had with the larger FMIC that lots of us run. 105 mph traps shouldn't be an issue with this sized turbo with the proper supporting mods.

 

[DSMopar]

how hard is it to do a 20G swap? Still same exhaust flange?

 

[hopwoodp]

how hard is it to do a 20G swap? Still same exhaust flange?

The 20g isn't that hard to swap. Depending on the head you are using(1g or 2g) will dictate what water pipes you need to use. Also, you will need a 1g oil return line and an oil feed line that will go from your oil filter bracket to the turbo. Also, 20g's have 2 different thread patterns for the bango bolt for the oil feed line.

Depending on your intercooler pipe setup, you may need a 90 elbow going to the passenger side or drivers side. You may use either a metal or silicone elbow for that but, its all up to you.

You also need to figure out if you want to run an internal or external wastegate.

 

[DSMopar]

uhh so it does or does not have an internal WG? Sounds like the exhaust outlet is different?

 

[99gst_racer]

uhh so it does or does not have an internal WG? Sounds like the exhaust outlet is different?

Sigh... The turbine housing exit is still the same basic MHI flange because it's still a basic MHI turbo. The do come with internal wastegates. You need to decide if you want to use the internal gate or ditch it for an external set-up. Obviously the design of the O2 housing will depend on your decision of wastegate.

Most of your questions have been covered extensively here in the forums. Try searching around for your answers. The more you familiarize yourself with your car, the parts you are speaking of, and with this site, the better off you will be.

 

[kenamond]

kenamond, what are the external differences of the T25 vs the T28, I believe externally they are the exact same?

Look at the picture below. Maybe some of the T25s look like this T28, but I had noticed these differences in the casting. That's the only difference I noticed.

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ah I found them, unfortunately the T28 is all but illegable.... plus some of the flow rates aren't even labeled for units

The FPB28 compressor is not the same as the T28. There are numerous threads where folks (myself included) were trying to track down a compressor map for the FPB28 without success. I called FP one day and the lady was going to email me the compressor map, but it never showed up (maybe she wrote my email address down incorrectly...dunno).