2g 6bolt Swap Manual Starter

[000]

Hey guys I'm new here because I just got a 95 eclipse gsx. It has a 6bolt swap with an evo 16g, fmic, 3'' turbo back, hks bov, safc, aftermarket injectors (not sure what size yet), aftermarket air filter, aftermarket fuel pump (not sure what kind yet), eibach springs, act 2600 clutch and some other mods.

I searched this forum and I'm finding similar posts but I'm still having problems.

It was starting fine but making a grinding noise. Then it eventually wouldn't start. The previous owner said he replaced the starter 2 months ago.

I'm assuming the grinding is from the starter gear skipping teeth on the flywheel before it catches.

Then I went and installed another starter this weekend that I bought from NAPA and it would start the engine with the grinding noise a handful of times but now it doesn't start unless I pop start it.

The part number I bought was 44-6402 from NAPA. I have another starter coming to my local NAPA today with part number 2446403.

Is this the right starter for an AWD manual transmission 6 bolt on a 2g eclipse gsx?

Also the part says automatic transaxle on some sections of the napa website and it says manual transaxle on others. Why would they have the same part number? Are they interchangeable? I hope they are not giving me the automatic one today.

Any ideas? Thanks.

 

[000]

Alright I've tried a few different starters now and 2 of them worked for about 5-10 times and then didn't work beyond that. It's back to the free spinning with a little grind and no start.

Is there any shot this is related to something electrical or is it just not the right starter? Or a section of the flywheel with bad teeth?

I tried 2 different batteries in the car...the one that was in it was pretty dead and the one that was in it before that was pretty dead.

And when the car drives, it shows the brake and battery lights sometimes. Also my battery was bubbling water after I drove the car the other day.

I'm wondering if maybe the starter isn't fully able to spin the flywheel because it doesn't have enough strength from the battery?

Any ideas? WTF

 

[Cdc1221]

Pull the starter and see if you can look at the flywheel teeth. You could have a few worn, broken teeth and everytime the starter gear gets to it, it has nothing to grab

 

[000]

Alright I pulled the starter from up top so the best I could do was to feel the flywheel teeth and they felt sharp but I don't know if they are shorter than they're supposed to be or if something is misaligned.

Would the flywheel teeth be rounded if they were worn? Or just shorter?

 

[crash89]

Can you grab one of those extendable mirrors and a light and get a peak at the flywheel!? That would really be the only way you could get a look without taking the trans out. To me it sounds that the flywheel is getting ground down. As far as I know auto and 5 speed starters are the same, its just the mounting points that differ. Is your transmission tight all the way around? If its loose it will make the starter not be able to engage all the way causing the grinding sound.

Now, your battery issue has me stumped . Sorry.

 

[000]

Alright good call on the mirror strategy I'm gonna see if I can do that but I want to make sure these transmission bolts are tight because you just mentioned it and a lot of people on here seem to mention it. I haven't looked myself but a mechanic had looked last week and thought that the transmission may have originally been automatic and swapped over to manual.

Do these bolts/nuts just need to be tightened or do they have to come out to realign the transmission/bell housing? And there's 4 right? I thought I've read that one would be missing on the 6 bolt swaps.

 

[crash89]

If they're loose just tighten them up.. Im not sure this is your problem though. If it was you'd be having clutch trouble as well..

 

[000]

Ya the clutch works fine. The previous owner said its an act 2600 installed around 5 months ago.

The weird part is, if it's the flywheel then why would the starter work for those inital 5-10 times?

Like lets say that theres a section of the flywheel with worn teeth so the starter doesn't engage it. To the point where it no longer starts I can just hear some grinding and free spinning.

So then why would the replacement starter work on the first try after its installed? The flywheel is in the same position it's just a different starter.

 

[Cdc1221]

Ok. Turn it over til it gets to the part where it wont start, take the starter off and feel the teeth on the fly there. Also, how did the bendix look on the previous starter(s)?

 

[000]

The bendix looks fine on the three starters I've had in there.

I understand what you mean about turning it until it's at the part where the starter won't engage the flywheel.

Here's the thing I'm saying though. With the past 2 starters before this new one, I swapped them out and the new starter worked on the first try. That means the flywheel stayed in the same position but the car started up with the replacement starters.

Now I've got this 3rd starter in there and it's not working now. I bet if I swap out another starter it'll do that 5-10 times working thing again before it doesn't work, and again there won't be any change of flywheel position during the swap.

 

[Cdc1221]

Did the part store check out the last 3 to see if they were still good? If not, take it it to them and have them test this one. Just doesnt make sense that they are free spinning unless somethings up with the flywheel

 

[000]

Maybe its still the wrong starter. I had the 2446402 from napa in there...thats the first one, then I swapped it for another of the same part number.

The third one is 2446403 and did the same thing where it worked at first and now it doesn't.

Anyone know about the 16869 or 16939? I think I remember reading about those.

Also I searched advance auto and they have one that says its for years 90-95 awd eclipse manual transmission. Thats the 16869. Not sure about auto though, and I'm not sure if I need the auto starter or manual since a mechanic told me he thinks my car started out auto and now its manual.

 

[miguelmcv]

The starters are the same, they all work but the Starter shield/dust plates are not the same, I might think that you have a fwd starter shield modified to accept the awd starter locaton OR, you have charging issues.

Another possibility is that, your alternator is not charging and not be able to produce enough cranking for the starter, the starter will get hot and will get weaker and needs more cranking cc to be able to do it's job.

Check to see if the starter plate looks modified from the holes where the starer mounts, if the holes looks like they were drilled and moved, then that should be your issue.

FWD and AWD have different starter locations, the FWD plate moves the starter far out of the crank, which the AWD starter plate moves the starter more toward the crank to accept the Smaller diameter Flywheel.

 

[000]

Alright I'm gonna check the starter plate tonight. That might be the cause of the grinding but now I'm thinking that the free-spinning might be because of the bad charging situation since my batteries have died and the last one was bubbling.

I thought the starter plates were only different between 1g and 2g...I didn't know it was between FWD and AWD. Is this definitely true? Is there an AWD + FWD starter plate for each generation, AKA 4 plates total? Or just 2

 

[Paul@RTM]

Just to clarify the above post. The starters are all the same for manual tranny and they're all the same for auto tranny, but M/T and A/T can't be interchanged. Also, you should match the starter plate to the TRANSMISSION not the engine. So, assuming you've got a 2g AWD tranny, you need a 2g AWD starter plate.

I thought the starter plates were only different between 1g and 2g...I didn't know it was between FWD and AWD. Is this definitely true? Is there an AWD + FWD starter plate for each generation, AKA 4 plates total? Or just 2

Yes, there are different starter plates for 1g FWD, 1g AWD, 2g FWD, 2g AWD (and further confusing things is that A/T and M/T are different in some cases).

 

[000]

Alright I hope it has the right one in there. The weird thing is I've only had this car a couple weeks and the guy before me said he had replaced the starter 2 months prior because it was just making a clicking sound and not starting the car.

He said after that replacement he never had an issue.

I'm gonna try putting the starter back in there tonight and a different battery and see how it goes.

I keep trying to get the starter on from up top and I'm having trouble aligning it with the bolt holes...it seems like it doesn't fit but I know it does since it was in there last night. Any suggestions?

 

[miguelmcv]

I am more convinsed that you have the wronge starter plate, a very easy to identify it is ,,,, to see throught the starter holes at the transmission, if you see throught the transmission holse, you will see both holes clear, but if you have the wrong starter plate, you will be able to see the starter plate throught the transmission holes blocking like 1/8 of the hole, spesially one hole of the plate will be verry off.

 

[000]

Alright I'll check out the starter plate again tomorrow. I worked on the starter issue again tonight with someone and he noticed that the bolts holding the starter in place were loose.

They were tightened, but the diameter of the bolt didn't 100% fill the hole that they go through so he's saying that the starter isn't fully tight and has some play which is causing them to go bad/not make the best contact with the flywheel.

I'm gonna call a dealership tomorrow to find out what starter I should be putting in this car and I'm gonna get some new bolts if they have them.

Have you guys ever heard of these bolts being loose and giving the starter play like that?

Also thanks for all the responses so far.

 

[miguelmcv]

The bolts might be to long and not be able to tight the starter.

 

[000]

Alright so I'm gonna get new bolts. The dealer said it would take a couple days and I couldn't get to them yet to pay them so I'm thinking about trying some from home depot.

It seems weird that the bolts wouldn't work unless they aren't the original or maybe they got worn? Either way this guy helping me says that he can feel the play and that play might be causing the starters to go bad. Also I have a 1.8 starter in there right now so maybe that's not helping.

When I searched on here I found another post saying that they are m10x60mm bolts.

The part number is MF140270.

Otherwise do you think they're the same bolts on a 93 eclipse 1.8 engine? Because I have one of those and I can remove the bolts from that if they're the same.

 

[Firsts tuner]

Is the flywheel tight? If the clutch was recently replaced then it stands to reason that the flywheel was removed and ground. Probably not the case but its free to look. Isn't there an inspection/ dust cover at the bottom of the bell housing that you can remove with just a few bolts.

 

[000]

We put new bolts in and a new starter with no luck.

Im not sure about whether or not the flywheel is tight. The guy thinks I need a new flywheel but you said there's a way to check the tightness of the flywheel Without taking off tranny?

And can I see how many bolts are on the flywheel without taking off the tranny? ### I wanna make sure it's really the 6 bolt like I was told so I can order the right one.

 

[crash89]

Guys talking about having the wrong starter plate: If this was the case the starter wouldnt even bolt in. The holes in the starter plate do not line up with the trans unless they are pared correctly. So saying he has the wrong plate is dumb because the starter fits where its supposed to be.

OP: Are you saying that the bolts are bottoming out the threads before the starter is tight? if thats the case put a couple lock washers on the head side.. That could be a temporary solution until you find the correct bolts.. Which are supposed to be this:

1) Lower Bolt 10 x 1.25 65 mm long 22 thread length 14 head 8 hardness
2) Upper, shorter bolt with wire holder 10 x 1.25 60 mm long 22 thread length 14 head 7 hardness
Taken from http://youturd.com/kb_00023_2G_Turbo_FWD_bolt_wizard.htm

now as said before you'll have to take the inspection plate off (under the car bolted to the transmission) You might be able to fit your hand in there and feel. But if not you'd have to pull the trans to find out if you really have a 6 bolt. Also from there perhaps you could try and wiggle the flywheel to see if its loose. I doubt it is though.

 

[miguelmcv]

Guys talking about having the wrong starter plate: If this was the case the starter wouldnt even bolt in. The holes in the starter plate do not line up with the trans unless they are pared correctly. So saying he has the wrong plate is dumb because the starter fits where its supposed to be.
.

I am totally disagree with this.

The bolts will still pass through the holes, even being the wrong plate, the only difference is that they don't pass as good as with the right plate, If you think that's a dump suggestion,.... Be leave me I know that from hand, I did install my FWD starter plate on my AWD when I did the AWD convertion and it was the dumest thing I have ever done, got so pissed off because had to take the tranny down after weeks of labor.

To the OP.

Don't buy parts with out being sure of what you need, you will buy something and later on find out that is something else what you need. just search for what ever you think you will need and have the source or infomation, so you know where to buy it once you are sure you really need that part.

Have you see through the transmission holes?, you will see clearly if you have the wrong plate.

 

[crash89]

I am totally disagree with this.

The bolts will still pass through the holes, even being the wrong plate, the only difference is that they don't pass as good as with the right plate, If you think that's a dump suggestion,.... Be leave me I know that from hand, I did install my FWD starter plate on my AWD when I did the AWD convertion and it was the dumest thing I have ever done, got so pissed off because had to take the tranny down after weeks of labor..

Ive also dealt with this first hand on my buddys GSX.. AWD with a fwd starter plate. The bolt wouldn't even come close to going through. You can see in this pic that what you say is false.. The correct bolts will not pass through the holes.. Nor would the starter sit in the correct position..