2.4 swap plans, need some opinions. (VERY long, sorry)

[insanewayne]

Hey guys. (sorry this is so long, but could a Wiseman or someone please read )

Ok here it is. I have a plan to build up a 2.4 setup using the 4GCS. I would have posted this in the tech section, but I didn't wanted to get bitched at, cause really I just want some Knowledgeable opinions....man I hope some wisemen or mods read this forum .

Ok, so first things first, I’m in Canada, so were talking CAN dollars here. I own a 91 laser turbo. It has 200k on it...and it's in ruff shape, but runs great. Needs a full rebuild soon, probably a new turbo within 50K and some major body work + paint...but I only paid 1750 for it...so not bad. I posted on BCDSM, for a 1g AWD with a blown bottom end that someone wanted to let go for cheap (which is kinda rare, most people fix them). So there's a guy on the island (Vancouver island) who has a 90 tsi AWD with a blown motor...his water pump failed and the engine over heated...so I’m guessing seized pistons or mangled bearings...either way it doesn't matter...all I need is the head... and all other engine parts, so this is perfect. Now I'm broke till November 3rd, but he said he might want to do a straight trade my car for his...at first I was like wtf man, my car is in decent running shape, for now, and yours is blown...but then I thought about all the shit my car needs , and it might be nice just to get rid of it. The guy put some money into it...profec, Greddy TT, rims, gauges n shit, but the trade is without any of that stuff...just mentioning that to show that hopefully he had some care for his car. So first off...what does someone think of this trade?

Ok, so I think I can pick up a 4GCS bottom end out of a sonata for around 200-250$...now if I get one with decent km's on it, is it possible that I wouldn't have to get in machining done? Or should I realize were still on earth here ... My plan was to find a car like the one this guy has, then build the engine over the winter and get it drivable, then when more $$$ comes...upgrade and upgrade and upgrade. From what I’ve read...all I’d need is this car from this guy, the bottom end of a 4GCS (plug the drain holes etc), some Aftermarket pistons, and remark the 63 cam gears, and use the galant DOHC T-belt? Then I could use the stock turbo for the time being, and smic etc, etc, till I get more money to upgrade as I go. So I was wondering, can the stock 4g63 ECU run a 2.4 or what could I do to get by here without having to buy a DSMLink or standalone setup right away

I always thought the 4GCS came with the 1g big rods...but I just read something different...anyone know the facts about this? If not, pauter/ross? or eagle/ross?
pauter/wiseco? .... any opinions here as I have never used either product.

For a streetable, but very powerful big boosting setup should I go 8.5:1 or 9:1 ?

Bother with the oil squirters or not? Where do I install the knock sensor... I was never able to find a definate answer in any of the related posts.

I'm not too worried about the turbo upgrade yet, because I won't be able to afford that for awhile...as far as the stock one being able to breath ok, not surge, etc, is there anything I could do to maybe allow more airflow, and not shove 300 degree air into my IC.... Port the Exhaust housing, clip the exhaust turbine?...

Ok I’ll try not to make this anymore of a novel then it already is...but what would you guys suggest I prioritize for my upgrades. Oh and I will also have an auto shop available to do this in, but it's just a high school/college one, so no machining stuff there, what should the machining cost me if I need lets say some re-boring....oh and at the same time, I’ve read a few times about the need for a torque plate?...what exactly is that, just a plate that the block sits on for machining?

My goal is for the car to be able to run 10's a year or so from now, as my driving skill improves to achieve such an ET, and the required funds become available.

Standalone worth it? Or could I reach these goals with the DSMLink?...

I'm sure I have a few more Questions I forgot to mention, but this is waaaaaay to long already, so if anyone is still reading this, thank you very, very much


Thanks again.

Wayne

 

[crankbender]

Wow let me see if I can give you some advice.

Don't get rid of your running car right now. You need to learn a little more before you try a project like this.

Over heading the car can destrol the head. Don't assume the head is ok.

If you do decide to go with the 2.4 you will have to machine the block to match the new pistons. In fact you should have the pistons to the machine shop before they do any work so they can match each cylinder to the right piston. However, if you are going for big power the bigger block of the 2.0 might be better for you.

The judges are out on the oil squirters. IMHO they are a good idea.

Messing with the turbine wheel will not help the compressor side at all. Your 14b will not like the increased volume too much at any elevated boost levels.

There is not a dsmlink for the 1g cars yet...

If you want to run 10's you may want a stand alone.

I really think you need to take this back to the drawing board. A 10 second dsm is not an easy task and will not be cheap in any fashion (you will start breaking things). Why not use your current car and build up a new 2.0/2.3 for it?

 

[insanewayne]

Do you mean bigger, as in thicker cyclinder walls? cause im not worried about that because the its the exact same casting as the 63, with a 6mm taller deck height and 1.5mm larger bore and with reinforced webbing over the 63, to compensate for the thinner walls...so that not an issue, with the machining i know i would need to rebore to the spec of the pistons, but im pretty sure if the bore was still in very decent shape, i read there's a set you can order for the stock spec bore, but i guesse the engine would have to be almost new then, is what your saying right?

There is no DSMlink for 1g's yet, but its not hard to wire a 95 ECU to a 1g, there's a full guide for it on here...i have the link on my comp somewhere...

I am really set on the 2.4 because i like the idea of the extra displacement and the availibity of the 4GCS is also nice, but the big one is the ability too spool a larger turbo.

And i oviously planned to inspect the head thouroughly before using it...if thats what you meant?

And for the turbo, i was thinkin along the lines of the exhaust gases not being able to breath through the small 14b (hopefully 16G) turbine wheel...Backing up the flow of the exhaust out of the cylinders...so would increasing the amount of gasses that could pass through by porting or clipping maybe help for the time being?..and then i was thinkin that maybe the turbo would be then be spinning at an insanely high rpm, or ever just higher then it would be in a 63, to make lets say 14-16psi....making the temps inefficient all together or am i just way off here.

And dont worry, im not getting defensive or anything, thank you very much for reading my novel...i'm letting ya know what lines im thinkin on.

Thanks

Wayne

 

[insanewayne]

Anyone? Crank?

 

[insanewayne]

OK so ive decided no on the trade for sure , but what i need to know now is will the stock ecu run the 2.4?

 

[insanewayne]

Anyone?
Will the 63 ecu compensate for the extra displacement, or is it set somewhere and thats it?

 

[Lunch_Box]

I will have to say yes.

 

[insanewayne]

yes to what? it will or it won't .

 

[nukefission]

Yes, your 2.4 will run with the stock ECU.

Ok, so I think I can pick up a 4GCS bottom end out of a sonata for around 200-250$...now if I get one with decent km's on it, is it possible that I wouldn't have to get in machining done?

It doesn't matter how many miles (or kilometers are on it, as long as there aren't any scores or scratches in the crankshaft journals. This is critical because you don't want to have to have the crank cut. Ideally you will have the crank micropolished (which doesn't remove the hardener substance from the journals) and the block bored/honed to suit your pistons at the machine shop.

I always thought the 4GCS came with the 1g big rods...but I just read something different...anyone know the facts about this? If not, pauter/ross? or eagle/ross pauter/wiseco? .... any opinions here as I have never used either product.

The 150mm "6-bolt big rod" is what is used in both the 4G63 and 4G64. It's the piston that's different to accomodate the difference in deck height (pin location). I'm also building a 2.4 motor and Eagle rods/Wiseco pistons is the combination I'm going with. It's the cheapest and the best bang for the buck. The Eagles can support plenty of power and the Wisecos can be run at a tight tolerance (high silicon content to prevent expansion) to preserve the cylinders.

For a streetable, but very powerful big boosting setup should I go 8.5:1 or 9:1 ?

Personally I would opt for the lower compression and let the big turbo do all the work. More margin for error when tuning as well.

Bother with the oil squirters or not?

Blocking the oil squirters is a bad idea for a few reasons: 1) results in too much oil pressure, which is not the friend of relatively high-revving motors; this can be alleviated somewhat by porting out the oil pressure relief hole in the oil filter housing. 2) deprives the pistons and cylinders of lubrication, when both need all the help they can get; if our pistons were oil cooled internally like Supra pistons then I wouldn't take issue with it as much.

Where do I install the knock sensor... I was never able to find a definate answer in any of the related posts.

The same place it is in your current 4G63 motor. The threaded hole should be there between cylinders 1&2 near the top of the block.

as far as the stock one being able to breath ok, not surge, etc, is there anything I could do to maybe allow more airflow, and not shove 300 degree air into my IC.... Port the Exhaust housing, clip the exhaust turbine?...

Just keep the boost down until you get something other than a pea-shooter on there.

I’ve read a few times about the need for a torque plate?...what exactly is that, just a plate that the block sits on for machining?

A torque plate is a plate (looks like a headgasket) that is bolted to the block and torqued to the same spec as the head would be. Torquing the head down to 100 ft-lbs, for example, creates some distortion in the cylinders. Boring/honing the cylinders while the distortion is there keeps things consistent and ensures the tightest tolerances when the motor is truly bolted together. Boring without using a torque plate can lead to looser or improper piston-to-wall clearance which can then lead to premature wear, blowby, you get the idea.

My goal is for the car to be able to run 10's a year or so from now, as my driving skill improves to achieve such an ET, and the required funds become available.

Good luck. It's an expensive and time-consuming proposition. The motor and tuning aspect is just the tip of the iceberg. Be sure to leave plenty of room in your wallet for giving the tranny the attention it will need, as well as certain drivetrain components.

Standalone worth it? Or could I reach these goals with the DSMLink?...

You can get into the 10s with the stock ECU (modified, of course). The question is how much piggyback goofiness are you willing to put up with? Learn with what you got first, then work your way up to the AEM if you think it's necessary. By the way, DSMLink IS available for the 1G, it just hasn't been released yet.

Hope this helps.

 

[insanewayne]

That helps ALOT, thank your very much for your time.

I read that the G4CS rods where the same as the 1g big rods, but with e shittier casting job? what do you think those rods would handle with this setup?

 

[Lunch_Box]

That helps ALOT, thank your very much for your time.

I read that the G4CS rods where the same as the 1g big rods, but with e shittier casting job? what do you think those rods would handle with this setup?

If you are going to be building a stroker than you will most likely be running a big turbo, so I would replace the rods with something that can handle more HP.

 

[insanewayne]

Ok, thanks, thats what i figured, i'll be on a budjet at first but i might as well get all the right internals in the the first time and not have to open her up twice.

Any opinions on brands?

 

[Lunch_Box]

If it was me I would go with pauter but they aren't to cheap. If you are on budget lots of people are using Eagle.

 

[insanewayne]

Yeh i've heard that also...im on a budget so i guesse it will be eagle...do you any piston brand info? or should i just read everyone's opinion and form my own....i've heard good things about ross?

 

[Lunch_Box]

If this was my engine I would go with Ross pistons and pauter rods. On budget I would go with wiseco pistons and eagle rods.

 

[insanewayne]

Ok, i'll try for the highest quality, cause in a year or so i'd like this car to be pushin 600hp or so....so i dont think eagle rods will do the job there.


I've also decided on the 1g dsmlink, it's going to be cheaper, and have all the same features, plus a few extras !!! Man im stoked for that.

 

[nukefission]

Eagle rods DO support 600hp. A friend of mine dynoed 603whp on his 2.0l with Eagle rods. That's almost 700 crank horsepower. I think it's good enough for you, and it doesn't hurt the wallet as much. Pauter or Crower rods just aren't necessary for most people.

But do what you like.

 

[Lunch_Box]

Crower or Pauter might not be the best bet for your wallet but if you have a coulpe extra hundred bucks why not get something stronger?

 

[insanewayne]

hmm, well i guesse what i'll have to do is find out the expected machining costs, then base my decision on my remaining budjet.

Thanks guys

Wayne