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2G 2.0 Long rod, & +625 worth the $?

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Archer Fabrications

10+ Year Contributor
9,734
695
May 9, 2011
Scottsdale, Arizona
Hey it's been a while since ive posted in the engine tech fourm but I'm just getting around to buying parts for my new build and the first thing I'm buying is new rods, ive chosen to get the manley turbo tuff 156mm I beam rods with the 22mm wrist pin for the 6bolt and there is an option for the ARP 625+ rod bolt upgrade for $200.

My goal for this build is to bulletproof the motor for 1,000whp but I'm only shooting for 850whp on the 6466 woth E85. And a max rev of 9500-10,000 thus, the long rod. The car is a weekend warrior/drag car. I want it to be "safe" for the revs is it worth the extra 200$ for the bolts? Ive never had issues up to 40psi on my 6466 with arp 2000's on my scat rods. And 8500rpm

Also any recommendation on piston choice now days? :hmm:Kinda been looking at the ross stroker 9:1 as my #1 choice, considering wiseco hd2 or 1400 as my second choice, and manley as my 3rd (cause how could manley piston on manley rod be bad:idontknow:) I'm open to input on Compression ratio, ive always been 9:1 for the tuning margin, buy considering 10 or 11:1. Lets hear it.
 
I'm unqualified to comment on the rods and bolts.

But if suitable raise your compression.
The valve reliefs on many of the mentioned pistons are more than enough to account for ptv clearance even in higher compression, and doing so will only help in your quest for power.

However I've heard it's a little more work for the person behind the dyno.
 
I'm unqualified to comment on the rods and bolts.

But if suitable raise your compression.
The valve reliefs on many of the mentioned pistons are more than enough to account for ptv clearance even in higher compression, and doing so will only help in your quest for power.

However I've heard it's a little more work for the person behind the dyno.
Person behind dyno is me, kinda why i was leaning to my 9:1 or even 8.5:1 but since e85 had given thought to going higher. Maybe a 10:1 is the happy medium thanks for your reply.

I'm considering assembling this motor myself also, so any recommendations on tollerances? For piston to wall, ring gap, and bearings? I'm a welder and have never assembled a motor, but ive torn down a few and definately have the mechanical ability.
 
im looking at parts for a future build in the same realm as you're thinking. g4cs block, LR destroker for longevity but the occasional stint to 8500+.

personally, i was looking at manley pistons, heard good things. depending on your budget, venolia gets good reviews, and ross has always had a good rep.

on the rods, i was looking at carillo or possibly even going ally rods (i'm still wary on them for a weekend warrior). since you're going with TT rods, they're pretty heavy and if you plan to weekend it alot and push the rpms, the 625+ rod bolts might be some nice insurance. if you went with a lighter rod, i dont see why the 2000's wouldn't work fine, but then the cost of rods goes up.

if you have the access to it, id recommend going the e85 route for the build. 10:1 would permit 91-93 on low boost id think if you were very careful/couldn't get some E at the time. if i had access to it more readily, id go the e85 route as well, but there's no more stations locally that carry it and i don't wanna order barrels really even tho its cheaper overall.

as far as assembling a motor, if its from scratch, i always like to err on the side of tighter clearances, but thats going to really depend on intended oil type, expected pressure and driving style. most of the higher hp builds, run looser clearances it seems. as long as you're conscientious, thorough and CLEAN, everything should go fine. ive built alot of motors, all in my garage, and never had a failure to date (knock on wood). a reputable machine shop is also good to have; ive had to have quite a bit of machine work redone due to cheap/shoddy work.

either way, interested to see your build man, should be a good one!
 
I'm in
im looking at parts for a future build in the same realm as you're thinking. g4cs block, LR destroker for longevity but the occasional stint to 8500+.

personally, i was looking at manley pistons, heard good things. depending on your budget, venolia gets good reviews, and ross has always had a good rep.

on the rods, i was looking at carillo or possibly even going ally rods (i'm still wary on them for a weekend warrior). since you're going with TT rods, they're pretty heavy and if you plan to weekend it alot and push the rpms, the 625+ rod bolts might be some nice insurance. if you went with a lighter rod, i dont see why the 2000's wouldn't work fine, but then the cost of rods goes up.

if you have the access to it, id recommend going the e85 route for the build. 10:1 would permit 91-93 on low boost id think if you were very careful/couldn't get some E at the time. if i had access to it more readily, id go the e85 route as well, but there's no more stations locally that carry it and i don't wanna order barrels really even tho its cheaper overall.

as far as assembling a motor, if its from scratch, i always like to err on the side of tighter clearances, but thats going to really depend on intended oil type, expected pressure and driving style. most of the higher hp builds, run looser clearances it seems. as long as you're conscientious, thorough and CLEAN, everything should go fine. ive built alot of motors, all in my garage, and never had a failure to date (knock on wood). a reputable machine shop is also good to have; ive had to have quite a bit of machine work redone due to cheap/shoddy work.

either way, interested to see your build man, should be a good one!

I'm in scottsdale so plenty of ethanol. Which is awesome cause in seattle where I'm from there is none. I dont think the TT rods are heavy enough to worry about, even the discription says perfect balance of weight and rigidity. Plus the extreme psi dragster uses them at 215+mph and boostin uses them so i dont think i can go wrong. I'm still trying to find a good machine shop i think i may have a good lead though. Hopin for some 9's and 150mph when this is said and done. I'm trying to keep the budget small as possible while not cutting corners since this is a rebuild of a previous motor that ran dry. Pretty much re using everything except pistons and rods and oil pump/front case and ofh cams and springs.
 
I'm in


I'm in scottsdale so plenty of ethanol. Which is awesome cause in seattle where I'm from there is none. I dont think the TT rods are heavy enough to worry about, even the discription says perfect balance of weight and rigidity. Plus the extreme psi dragster uses them at 215+mph and boostin uses them so i dont think i can go wrong. I'm still trying to find a good machine shop i think i may have a good lead though. Hopin for some 9's and 150mph when this is said and done. I'm trying to keep the budget small as possible while not cutting corners since this is arebuild of a previous motor that ran dry.
Pretty much re using everything except pistons and rods and oil pump/front case and ofh cams and springs.

It's not that they're collapsing-sun heavy, but they are one of the heavier rods for dsms, and throwing that much weight around at those rpms is something that came across my mind when looking at different options. They'll prolly be fine, but as far as the bolts go, id bump up to the 625+'s. I don't recall the cost difference to do that tho.

It should be an awesome setup! 2.0lr at 9k sounds like alot of fun haha.
Im only planning to get 550-600 maybe, but I'd like to have the headroom to go up from there if I want. Gl with it!
 
Save your money on the rods and put it towards a billet crank, or transmission corpses. Cranks crack in the #4 rod journals, and transmissions last minuets at 850whp... Rod bolts never fail.

2 liter cranks crack?
 
I'll chime in here. I have a set of TT I beams. Mine are standard 150 length though. When emailing Manley about my intended use (700whp and 9k RPM), they told me the standard bolts are "more then enough". The 625+ bolts are a "last resort" kind of option. He also stated that upgrading the rod bolts on the TT I beams wasn't needed until 1000hp or more was going to be made.

When I ordered my rods (from extremepsi), they were on back order from Manley. No one had them in stock. Manley or other companies may not have the rods your looking for in stock, just a heads up.

DO NOT USE THE FACTORY ROD TORQUE SPEC's. Manley Turbo Tuff I beam rod bolts need to be torqued to 50 lb / ft with moly lube. Bolt stretch is .0058 - .0062" Another heads up LOL
 
I'll chime in here. I have a set of TT I beams. Mine are standard 150 length though. When emailing Manley about my intended use (700whp and 9k RPM), they told me the standard bolts are "more then enough". The 625+ bolts are a "last resort" kind of option. He also stated that upgrading the rod bolts on the TT I beams wasn't needed until 1000hp or more was going to be made.

When I ordered my rods (from extremepsi), they were on back order from Manley. No one had them in stock. Manley or other companies may not have the rods your looking for in stock, just a heads up.

DO NOT USE THE FACTORY ROD TORQUE SPEC's. Manley Turbo Tuff I beam rod bolts need to be torqued to 50 lb / ft with moly lube. Bolt stretch is .0058 - .0062" Another heads up LOL
Tq spec sounds same as my scat rods i appreciate your into you got from manley!
 
Smoker: I recently assembled my long block, spent plenty of time discussing tolerances with tuners and old Gm dragsters. The consensus is the same you want to run a little looser.

Just for example. The oem ptw clearance is about 0.016 im at 0.035 - 0.040
The ring gaps are around the same number. im in at 0.024/0.022

This is loose but optimal if you plan to push some power.

My rod and main are about 0.002 it's good not to lose or tigh...


Hope it helps. FYI I haven't fired her up yet so I can always be wrong...LOL
 
I think another area to not overlook is the wrist pin (thickness, length, and steel its made of). Its one of the most stressed parts. I contacted different manufacturers and some have it the same length as stock and/or thinner, and others would make them shorter and thicker. As I understand, drag race teams would get custom DLC coated tool steel wrist pins for their cars.
 
Fwiw, TT rods like to eat bearings at high rpms. One of the reasons i went to aluminum. If i were to build another steel rod motor i would run the R&R billets. Lighter and stronger then the manleys.
 
Just get a 22mm 150 turbo tuff, full skirt pistons with .200+ thick pins.
Any reason you wouldnt opt for the better rod angle of the 156mm? I figure if people rev 2.0's to 10k easy a long rod wouldnt hurt, it's the same price as a standard so why not?

Steel rods will eat bearings more then aluminum in general, with that said I'd rather service bearings when that happens. I'm particularly not looking for an aluminum rod at this point, and the turbo tuffs with 625+ are at the top of my budget. Open to sugguestions, i know the turbo tuffs are on the heavier side (ive read 640-700grams) i just want the motor to last as long as possible with minimal major services intervuls. I dont expect it to last 80,000 miles at 850whp but i dont want to be cracking the pan open too often either

Boosten recommends the turbo tuff i beams for their stage3 up to 9500 and after that they recommend aluminum, so should be fine?
 
Last edited:
Any reason you wouldnt opt for the better rod angle of the 156mm? I figure if people rev 2.0's to 10k easy a long rod wouldnt hurt, it's the same price as a standard so why not?

Steel rods will eat bearings more then aluminum in general, with that said I'd rather service bearings when that happens. I'm particularly not looking for an aluminum rod at this point, and the turbo tuffs with 625+ are at the top of my budget. Open to sugguestions, i know the turbo tuffs are on the heavier side (ive read 640-700grams) i just want the motor to last as long as possible with minimal major services intervuls. I dont expect it to last 80,000 miles at 850whp but i dont want to be cracking the pan open too often either

Boosten recommends the turbo tuff i beams for their stage3 up to 9500 and after that they recommend aluminum, so should be fine?

The 1 (and only reason actually), that I went with the shorter 150mm rod was to try to keep the rotating weight down. The longer rods may not weight that much more then std size rods, but more weight (especially rotating weight), is definitely not something I wanted. I do understand that the longer rod creates a better rod ratio (and is easier on rod bearings in turn), but sadly the longer rod creates another issue, which is needing to use a "non off the shelf piston" (wrist pin height changes). I was looking for something that was easy to replace, if need be (and get initially). There are trade offs. My way of doing it probably isn't ideal. However, when weighing the options, I chose the lightest off the shelf parts I could find within reason.

It's inevitable that a steel rod is going to be harder on rod bearings then aluminum rods. Like you said, ~$100 for rod and main bearings once every year or so isn't a big deal at 800+whp levels. Nature of the beast. Cutting open the oil filters will help keep an eye on things with out pulling the pan. Running a magnet or 2 in the oil pan and another around the outside of the filter is another "easy" mod to helping things live. Girdling the mains is another helpful addition to the short block. Keeping the oil and coolant temps down are the biggest things to look at when keeping a high HP street motor happy.

I've read various threads here, evoM, other forums, that lead me to believe my goals (700whp and 9K rev limit), should easily be met with the Manley Turbo Tuff's. I was going to list the weights of my TT's, but it's not going to benefit you, because your looking at 156mm rods..
 
Smoker: I recently assembled my long block, spent plenty of time discussing tolerances with tuners and old Gm dragsters. The consensus is the same you want to run a little looser.

Just for example. The oem ptw clearance is about 0.016 im at 0.035 - 0.040
The ring gaps are around the same number. im in at 0.024/0.022

This is loose but optimal if you plan to push some power.

My rod and main are about 0.002 it's good not to lose or tigh...


Hope it helps. FYI I haven't fired her up yet so I can always be wrong...LOL

The piston to wall clearance is dependent on the piston alloy (2618, 4032, etc.), the manufacture, how you intend to use the engine. I will agree that loser is better to a point. Ring gaps are the same as PTW clearance, depends on a few factors. Rod and main bearing clearances need to take into effect max RPM, intended use, etc. You can't just "add some" to the stock clearances and "hope" the motor lives. I mean, you can, but that isn't the correct way to do it. Each piston manufacture will have it's only formula for finding PTW and ring gap adjustments, which will have a range (example would be 4 to 5 thousandths of PTW clearance, building a high RPM engine, you'd want things on the "loser" end (aka 5 thousandths) for this example. If you just go off what another person did, and your not using the same parts, you deserve what you get (aka a blown motor). There is a reason companies go through testing to come up with ideal clearances. Following instructions, or live the jack stand life...
 
Run the lightest rod possible that will meet your goals and for what you want I would look into Oliver rods. Also R&R make steel i beams that are stronger and lighter than manley/pauter but are out of your budget from what it seems.
 
I
The 1 (and only reason actually), that I went with the shorter 150mm rod was to try to keep the rotating weight down. The longer rods may not weight that much more then std size rods, but more weight (especially rotating weight), is definitely not something I wanted. I do understand that the longer rod creates a better rod ratio (and is easier on rod bearings in turn), but sadly the longer rod creates another issue, which is needing to use a "non off the shelf piston" (wrist pin height changes). I was looking for something that was easy to replace, if need be (and get initially). There are trade offs. My way of doing it probably isn't ideal. However, when weighing the options, I chose the lightest off the shelf parts I could find within reason.

It's inevitable that a steel rod is going to be harder on rod bearings then aluminum rods. Like you said, ~$100 for rod and main bearings once every year or so isn't a big deal at 800+whp levels. Nature of the beast. Cutting open the oil filters will help keep an eye on things with out pulling the pan. Running a magnet or 2 in the oil pan and another around the outside of the filter is another "easy" mod to helping things live. Girdling the mains is another helpful addition to the short block. Keeping the oil and coolant temps down are the biggest things to look at when keeping a high HP street motor happy.

I've read various threads here, evoM, other forums, that lead me to believe my goals (700whp and 9K rev limit), should easily be met with the Manley Turbo Tuff's. I was going to list the weights of my TT's, but it's not going to benefit you, because your looking at 156mm rods..
ll look into the magnets thats a good idea, i am ordering a kiggley girdle to help here, and the rotating assemby will be balanced to above my rev limit. For pistons i was looking at ross stroker pistons, they are off the shelf. And have the correct pin offset
 
Run the lightest rod possible that will meet your goals and for what you want I would look into Oliver rods. Also R&R make steel i beams that are stronger and lighter than manley/pauter but are out of your budget from what it seems.
All these rods are made from 4340 steel so they should all be similar in dirability, i saw there are 300m rods out there though that should be quite lighter, but out of budget. Turbo tuffs are all boostin uses for steel rods and say 9500 is good, I'm starting to wonder If the weight difference is really that big an issue
 
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