1G 1G SAFC Tuning Help *logs*

[Ski Bum]

I have just recently installed an e316g along with a FMIC. Prior to this I took care of the supporting mods: 650's, 255 FP, FPR, 2.5" exhaust (no cats), evo exhaust manifold. I also removed the lower honey combs from my stock MAF and backed the screw out flush.

I'm having a hard time getting a decent tune with my SAFC2. Originally I started off with my MBC set to 12psi. From what I read it is better to start low then work up once a decent tune is established. That just would not work for me becuase of boost creep. I would set the highs at around -15 up until 5k rpms when it would creep to 20psi then the setting had to jump to 0 or sop to keep from knocking. I decided since I have the proper supporting mods I would just set the boost at 18 from the get go and let it creep from there. This instantly gave me a TON more power before 5k rpms. It also smoothed out the whole power band much more than before because I no longer had the huge change in correction from -15 to 0 in 200 rpms. Now where I'm at is getting a smooth tune without knock (are'nt we all )

Here are my settings on the SAFC:

1k 2k 2.6k 3k 3.6k 4k 4.6k 5k 5.2k 5.8k 6k 7k
lo 0 -2 -4 -1 -5 -7 -7 -7 -7 -7 -7 -7
hi -18-18-18 -18 -18 -15 -14 -13 -12 -11 -10 -8
TH points: 15% 65%

My MBC is set to 18psi and at 5k rpms begins creeping and hits 21psi by 6.5k

My fuel trims are as follows:
FTRL 108-117% varying
FTRM 92.9% constant
FTRH 81.2% constant

Up to 5k rpms the power band is fairly smooth then at around 5k rpms I start to get knock. I tried setting the SAFC to 0 to richen things up and it knocks but sputters as well. Also around 6k rpms there is usually a fairly significant backfire with a plume of smoke.

What I cant seem to figure out is why I seem to get knock both when I lean things out and when it is rich. There are also times at part throttle, usually first gear where all the car will do is sputter/bog in what I think is and overly rich condition.

Heres a log, 3rd gear pull:

O2-R - MAFS - TPS - RPM - TIMA -KNCK -INJP -AIRT
0.88V 182.4Hz 12.5% 3156 35° 0 1.54ms 104.9°F
0.84V 415.1Hz 77.3% 2688 28° 0 6.91ms 104.9°F
0.86V 522.1Hz 100.0% 2875 27° 0 8.45ms 104.9°F
0.86V 691.9Hz 100.0% 3063 23° 0 11.52ms 104.0°F
0.88V 956.1Hz 100.0% 3313 17° 0 16.64ms 103.1°F
0.88V 981.2Hz 100.0% 3594 15° 2 16.13ms 102.2°F
0.88V 1107.0Hz 100.0% 3719 15° 1 16.38ms 101.3°F
0.88V 1214.0Hz 100.0% 4219 17° 0 16.90ms 101.3°F
0.88V 1371.2Hz 100.0% 4281 18° 0 17.66ms 100.4°F
0.88V 1409.0Hz 100.0% 4469 18° 7 17.92ms 100.4°F
0.88V 1541.1Hz 100.0% 4688 16° 10 19.20ms 99.5°F
0.86V 1503.3Hz 100.0% 4906 15° 13 18.18ms 99.5°F
0.86V 1572.5Hz 100.0% 5125 14° 12 18.69ms 98.6°F
0.86V 1604.0Hz 100.0% 5250 17° 13 13.82ms 98.6°F
0.86V 1604.0Hz 100.0% 5688 17° 12 17.92ms 98.6°F
0.84V 1585.1Hz 100.0% 5719 17° 11 17.15ms 98.6°F
0.84V 1604.0Hz 100.0% 6063 21° 23 16.90ms 97.7°F
0.08V 1604.0Hz 100.0% 6125 19° 42 16.38ms 97.7°F
0.84V 371.1Hz 12.5% 5344 17° 16 1.79ms 98.6°F
0.70V 232.7Hz 12.5% 4469 45° 0 1.79ms 99.5°F

 

[Gromit]

I have just recently installed an e316g along with a FMIC. Prior to this I took care of the supporting mods: 650's, 255 FP, FPR, 2.5" exhaust (no cats), evo exhaust manifold. I also removed the lower honey combs from my stock MAF and backed the screw out flush.

I'm having a hard time getting a decent tune with my SAFC2. Originally I started off with my MBC set to 12psi. From what I read it is better to start low then work up once a decent tune is established. That just would not work for me becuase of boost creep. I would set the highs at around -15 up until 5k rpms when it would creep to 20psi then the setting had to jump to 0 or sop to keep from knocking. I decided since I have the proper supporting mods I would just set the boost at 18 from the get go and let it creep from there. This instantly gave me a TON more power before 5k rpms. It also smoothed out the whole power band much more than before because I no longer had the huge change in correction from -15 to 0 in 200 rpms. Now where I'm at is getting a smooth tune without knock (are'nt we all )

Here are my settings on the SAFC:

1k 2k 2.6k 3k 3.6k 4k 4.6k 5k 5.2k 5.8k 6k 7k
lo 0 -2 -4 -1 -5 -7 -7 -7 -7 -7 -7 -7
hi -18-18-18 -18 -18 -15 -14 -13 -12 -11 -10 -8
TH points: 15% 65%

My MBC is set to 18psi and at 5k rpms begins creeping and hits 21psi by 6.5k

My fuel trims are as follows:
FTRL 108-117% varying
FTRM 92.9% constant
FTRH 81.2% constant

Up to 5k rpms the power band is fairly smooth then at around 5k rpms I start to get knock. I tried setting the SAFC to 0 to richen things up and it knocks but sputters as well. Also around 6k rpms there is usually a fairly significant backfire with a plume of smoke.

What I cant seem to figure out is why I seem to get knock both when I lean things out and when it is rich. There are also times at part throttle, usually first gear where all the car will do is sputter/bog in what I think is and overly rich condition.

Heres a log, 3rd gear pull:

O2-R - MAFS - TPS - RPM - TIMA -KNCK -INJP -AIRT
0.88V 182.4Hz 12.5% 3156 35° 0 1.54ms 104.9°F
0.84V 415.1Hz 77.3% 2688 28° 0 6.91ms 104.9°F
0.86V 522.1Hz 100.0% 2875 27° 0 8.45ms 104.9°F
0.86V 691.9Hz 100.0% 3063 23° 0 11.52ms 104.0°F
0.88V 956.1Hz 100.0% 3313 17° 0 16.64ms 103.1°F
0.88V 981.2Hz 100.0% 3594 15° 2 16.13ms 102.2°F
0.88V 1107.0Hz 100.0% 3719 15° 1 16.38ms 101.3°F
0.88V 1214.0Hz 100.0% 4219 17° 0 16.90ms 101.3°F
0.88V 1371.2Hz 100.0% 4281 18° 0 17.66ms 100.4°F
0.88V 1409.0Hz 100.0% 4469 18° 7 17.92ms 100.4°F
0.88V 1541.1Hz 100.0% 4688 16° 10 19.20ms 99.5°F
0.86V 1503.3Hz 100.0% 4906 15° 13 18.18ms 99.5°F
0.86V 1572.5Hz 100.0% 5125 14° 12 18.69ms 98.6°F
0.86V 1604.0Hz 100.0% 5250 17° 13 13.82ms 98.6°F
0.86V 1604.0Hz 100.0% 5688 17° 12 17.92ms 98.6°F
0.84V 1585.1Hz 100.0% 5719 17° 11 17.15ms 98.6°F
0.84V 1604.0Hz 100.0% 6063 21° 23 16.90ms 97.7°F
0.08V 1604.0Hz 100.0% 6125 19° 42 16.38ms 97.7°F
0.84V 371.1Hz 12.5% 5344 17° 16 1.79ms 98.6°F
0.70V 232.7Hz 12.5% 4469 45° 0 1.79ms 99.5°F

Hmmm...I can't offer too much help here - I checked out this thread because you're reporting similar problems to mine with a similar set-up. Here's a link to my thread - maybe the discussion will give you some ideas:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237545

A couple thoughts on your data:

Your FTRL indicates lean but your FTRH indicates very rich.

You've verified that your TPS reads 100% at WOT so no need to log that again - you'll get more samples per second without it. Can probably also leave off IAT. Would be nice to see the injector duty cycles at the points you're getting all the knock.

How's your knock sensor? And was a boost leak test done?

In researching the problems I'm experiencing I've mostly concluded that I'm overrunning the stock 1G MAF. I see where yours is hacked & I wonder if this is contributing to the problem. At 1 or 2 points your airflow signal goes up & down. With more data points we could see if this actually occurs even more frequently.

Sorry to not be more helpful - maybe 1 of the more experienced tuners will chime in an offer some input.

 

[weith1111]

Check for boost leaks.

Do you have your FP rewired?

Do you have an AFPR?

It's very possible you aren't getting consistant flow from the pump, causing you to lean out up top. There's really know way to tell for sure without a wideband o2, but getting an AFPR will definitely help things out for tuning.

When you do future logs, record just RPM, timing, airflow and knock.

 

[Ski Bum]

How's your knock sensor? And was a boost leak test done?

The knock sensor looks fine, no corrosion, etc. I just recently did a boost leak test and was able to get 14psi to register on my boost gauge. I have another thread regarding that. Air is getting into the crancase from the compressor inlet. I'm sure the turbo seals are fine, as it is brand new and the leak has been present before.

[QUOTE-Gromit]In researching the problems I'm experiencing I've mostly concluded that I'm overrunning the stock 1G MAF. I see where yours is hacked & I wonder if this is contributing to the problem. At 1 or 2 points your airflow signal goes up & down. With more data points we could see if this actually occurs even more frequently.[/QUOTE]

I'm thinking the same thing. I actually will be installing a GM MAf along with a MAF translator in blow through configuration next week. I'm hoping that should help alot.

Check for boost leaks.

Do you have your FP rewired?

Do you have an AFPR?

It's very possible you aren't getting consistant flow from the pump, causing you to lean out up top. There's really know way to tell for sure without a wideband o2, but getting an AFPR will definitely help things out for tuning.

When you do future logs, record just RPM, timing, airflow and knock

FP is rewired, AFPR set at 38.5 psi. I'm hoping that with my setup fuel is not the problem.

 

[Gromit]

The knock sensor looks fine, no corrosion, etc. I just recently did a boost leak test and was able to get 14psi to register on my boost gauge. I have another thread regarding that. Air is getting into the crancase from the compressor inlet. I'm sure the turbo seals are fine, as it is brand new and the leak has been present before.



I'm thinking the same thing. I actually will be installing a GM MAf along with a MAF translator in blow through configuration next week. I'm hoping that should help alot.




FP is rewired, AFPR set at 38.5 psi. I'm hoping that with my setup fuel is not the problem.

After you install the GM MAF & MAFT run another boost leak test - can try it on a warm engine as that helps seal things up a little better. It's more of a PITA to do & you have to be more careful, but you'll get better results. If that checks out OK (i.e., if you're MBC is set to 18 psi then set your air compressor to approx. 20 psi & pressurize the system - it should hold for a good 30 seconds when you turn off the compressor) then do another log & post up the info. Log what weith1111 mentioned & you should get enough samples to analyze.

 

[weith1111]

I'm hoping that with my setup fuel is not the problem.

Fuel is a problem, as you are getting knock, and with your size injectors you should be nowhere near 0 on the AFC. Even your -15 settings are too high. There is definitely a problem somewhere.

You are running super rich, and this could be just rich knock. Have you tried bringing the AFC down to around -25? You really should get a wideband, they are getting really affordable and are the only true way to know if you are running a safe AF ratio.

 

[Ski Bum]

Fuel is a problem, as you are getting knock, and with your size injectors you should be nowhere near 0 on the AFC. Even your -15 settings are too high. There is definitely a problem somewhere.

You are running super rich, and this could be just rich knock. Have you tried bringing the AFC down to around -25? You really should get a wideband, they are getting really affordable and are the only true way to know if you are running a safe AF ratio.

What would you reccomend as a starting point for the corrections? If 650's are flow 30% more than 450's, should I start at -25% accounting for my hacked MAF (+5%)? Is that how you came up with the -25 you mentioned?

As far as a wideband goes, believe me I'd like to have one. What I'm hoping to do is establish a "decent" tune using what I have and then go to my local shop and hop on the dyno with their wideband and make the finishing touches.

 

[weith1111]

What would you reccomend as a starting point for the corrections? If 650's are flow 30% more than 450's, should I start at -25% accounting for my hacked MAF (+5%)? Is that how you came up with the -25 you mentioned?

As far as a wideband goes, believe me I'd like to have one. What I'm hoping to do is establish a "decent" tune using what I have and then go to my local shop and hop on the dyno with their wideband and make the finishing touches.

You should start on the safe side, knowing which direction you should be heading. You should be fine with minus 15-20 as base. Setting it at -10 or zero means you are way way too rich.

For instance, with 550's it's a good idea to start -10 or -15 knowing you should be around -18 when done. -10 especially at the top end is a good idea because that's where the danger is. Then you start dropping it, -12, -14 and know you should be getting close to seeing knock anytime now. As soon as you see knock, bump it back up 1 or 2 % and you are done!

You are in an entirely different position though because you have really high knock. First you need to find out if it's real or not, and since it sounds like your fuel setup is adequate, throw in some race gas and do another log. If the knock is still the same, it's most likely caused by something other than fuel. The race gas should severely lower the knock counts if they are truly from lean conditions. Also cruise around with the logger on and see if you get any knock at part throttle/cruise situations. You shouldn't. Have you replaced your lifters with the revised version? Do you have any lifter tick?

Go from there, you've still got to tackle all this knock before you can really start "tuning."

 

[Ski Bum]

You should start on the safe side, knowing which direction you should be heading. You should be fine with minus 15-20 as base. Setting it at -10 or zero means you are way way too rich.

For instance, with 550's it's a good idea to start -10 or -15 knowing you should be around -18 when done. -10 especially at the top end is a good idea because that's where the danger is. Then you start dropping it, -12, -14 and know you should be getting close to seeing knock anytime now. As soon as you see knock, bump it back up 1 or 2 % and you are done!

You are in an entirely different position though because you have really high knock. First you need to find out if it's real or not, and since it sounds like your fuel setup is adequate, throw in some race gas and do another log. If the knock is still the same, it's most likely caused by something other than fuel. The race gas should severely lower the knock counts if they are truly from lean conditions. Also cruise around with the logger on and see if you get any knock at part throttle/cruise situations. You shouldn't. Have you replaced your lifters with the revised version? Do you have any lifter tick?

Go from there, you've still got to tackle all this knock before you can really start "tuning."

I usalluy have the logger running while driving around to see whats happening as well as to keep an eye on high coolant temps I've had since installing the FMIC. While cruising at low/part throttle I only see 1-3 counts randomly. I do however have some sputtering/bogging, only at mid throttle, not low, which may be from the rich mid and high fuel trims.

As far as lifters, they are stock. They do tick during cold start up and taper off once the motor reaches operating temp. Intermittently, I will hear a ticking lifter even when fully warm. I am eventually planning to replace my head with SBR's remanufactured or stage 1 head. I have not heard of the revised lifters, whats the story on those?

 

[weith1111]

Search "phantom knock" or "3g lifters." There are hundreds of threads. Even though you may think your lifters are okay, it's worth it to check them out. Some will just be stuck and won't move. This is not good, obviously. There are also tech articles and then there is always the good old vfaq: http://www.vfaq.com/mods/lifters.html

Good luck and enjoy the reading!

 

[Ski Bum]

I just wanted to give a little update here. I have since installed a GM MAF and a Dejon intake pipe with a port for the VC breather hose. It took a bit of playing around to dial in the settings to get the car to run decently. For instance I went from +1 at the 1000rpm lo setting with the 1G MAF to +45 (+20 on the MAF Translator and +25 on the SAFC) in order to get the car to idle right and get the FTRL to stay around 110%. I also did another boost leak test to make sure all of the new couplers, etc were on tight. I turned out that there was a hole in the weld for the VC breather nipple on the Dejon intake pipe. I guess thats not a huge deal but still I requested they send me another. So I havent since performed another boost leak test but I'm fairly cerain I have one since installing the GM MAF. The boost now creeps up to 25+psi which before would creep to 21-22 and hold to 7200 rpms. I havent done any WOT runs to that level yet, for obvious reasons, but I dont see any reason why the boost wouldnt creep past 25psi if I did. So I'm thinking I have a new leak somewhere, possibly the section of my UICP that I played with and cut to fit the GM MAF.

Secondly, I do belive I am getting phantom knock. When I accelerate in 1st gear from a stop (normal acceleration) I get 7-12 counts of knock as soon as I realease the clutch and begin to raise the rpms. According to my logger I'm still getting the normal 23-30* of advance while this occurs. This knock also happens at WOT at lower RPM's. I will see 12-19 counts of knock but timing sits solid at 23* and I dont feel any power loss.

Lastly, The car feels ALOT slower now that the GM MAF is installed. I'm sure its realted to tuning and the possible boost leak(s) I now have but before the GM MAF the car would lurch, squat and dissapear when boost hit. It pulled hard enough to allow a new Saleen Mustang get a good look at my tail lights on the freeway. So now I'm back to square one I suppose.

I guess the next thing to do is to check for boost leaks. I'll start at the TB and work my way down/backwards. Once I do that I'll try better gas. There is a local station that sells 100 octane at the pump (VP Racing), is that enough to rule out low octane knock at 20 psi ? Then I will go from there.

 

[Isphius]

Hey, I have an evo3 16g turbo, SS manifold, SMIC, fuel mods, so on, 2.5 turbo back no cat, polk shortblock. My car will boost to 21-23 psi just fine, and it feels great, But it idles like crap. I have the BC unplugged right now, Just stock WG control, It still goes to 12 or 13, Im just trying not to break it till I learn the tuning of the safc. The PO had the safc and most of the parts installed, And I dont think he tuned it right. It is hard to start when cold, And once it warms it idles at 2100 rpms. If i go under the hood and push the throttle closed it goes down, but im actually pushing it past where its supposed to go. Could this be a mechanical issue with the throttle body or SAFC tuning? Help pelase im new to these DSM cars and I already love them, But this is giving me a big headache.

 

[91AWDGSX1G]

And once it warms it idles at 2100 rpms.

Have you tried adjusting the throttle cable after your car has warmed up? This has happened to me!!