1G a good autocross car?

[Tylerstc]

Hey all, I don't have a dsm yet but I am in the market for a 1g. I was just curious how they do as far as autocross goes. Out at the autocross events i never see them, but I would think they would do good considering the all wheel drive. Soooo, are these cars good at it? Why or why not? Ive had some fox body mustangs before and now am looking for a different route. How do 1g's compare to foxbodies at autocrossing? You guys usually run quicker or slower than them on average?(i know it's a hard question because they can be modified so extensively) Well, thanks for any input, I appreciat it. Tyler

 

[FyxxterZC]

In my opinion they run slower. I have autoxed a 1g in street prep and got waxed by 2 fox body's and a gvr4. The problems you're going to run into are turbo lag (doesn't sound bad until this next one), power steering cut out (better word for is STOP) at high rpms, and haven't really had a problem with it in a 1g but the 2g gst I had would fuel slosh on hard left hand corners. I've heard the pickup for the pump is in the same location of the tank (or close to it) on a 1g awd and a 2g gst but that info could be wrong. So then when you come up to any sharp turn, try to downshift (most good autocrossers I know do not do this anyways, are usually progressive and smooth on corner entry and exit) you lose all of your steering help. To me anything above 4500-5 grand your steering just says NO. The only thing you will be competitive in is street mod, and then you would have to have some serious ideas on what to work with. Unless you are going to a rainy autocross, I don't see a 1g awd to be competitive. But there's always a ray of hope, I have seen a street prepped 1g awd win it's class.

 

[jtmcinder]

The problem with 1Gs is the front struts. Lousy (nearly flat) bump-camber curve. To keep the tires happy mid-corner, you need tons of static camber. Tons of static camber means less grip for straight-line acceleration and braking. No free lunch and 1Gs don't even get a complimentary glass of water.

- Jtoby

 

[zephyr_8]

Well my 1g wasnt too bad at autocross. Actually my old fwd sucked at it, horrible understeer. But my awd was actually quite nice. But it isnt stock. It did have mostly stock parts in the suspension and I thought it handled quite well. Almost as well as the porsche boxster I drove. But I came from karts so I learned how to drive and I was very used to my awd. All in all I think it handles really well.

 

[Tylerstc]

Thanks for the responses guys, keep em coming! Tyler

 

[mavisky]

My fwd is still an understeering monster wbut then I'm not on an extreme setup either. Was good enough to get my 4th behind 3 cars on slicks in street mod though in my local autocross. Nationally I'd get my everloving ass kicked though.

 

[T2Small]

It is harder to get a Mustang to handle than it is to get a 1G handling well. My experience comes from a SN95 that had Koni shocks, Ford racing springs, subframe braces, and some power adders versus a 1G DSM with shocks, crappy lowering springs, and some minor power adders.

The 1G was far easier to drive to the limit, but the ultimate limts were VERY similar. The cars were driven by my brother-in-law and a good friend of mine for the ESS (ESP?) title locally. Before the last event they were tied in number of wins and in overall points. (Time differences from 1st place.)

I was fortunate to get a chance to drive both cars, and I'd pick the 1G by a long shot. In fact, my brother-in-law has ditched the Mustang for his own 1G DSM now. The DSM could pull off great times with less driver skill. The Mustang requires much better throttle control, and has a tendency to upset much easier.

In the Mustang's defence it was a blast to drive. If you didn't feel like going fast and wanted to show off, you could easily powerslide around the track and put on an impressive show. A DSM can't get close to putting on such a show.

It seems that a similarly prepared 2G is slightly faster than either.

 

[DG-FNR]

There's a couple of tricks to getting a Mustang to handle well.

One of them is to realize that the front suspension has an atrocious motion ratio (on the order of about 0.4) and so it takes ENORMOUS front springs to get reasonable wheel rates. 1600lb front springs are in the right ballpark.

The second is that the rear axle needs a lot of help. The OEM control arm setup has an inherent bind to it, so it needs to be reworked into a 5-link. Add a Panhard bar, remove the upper control arms, and weld on new "traction bars", and suddenly the rear end becomes a lot more tractable.

Properly set up, an SN-95 Mustang and a 2G DSM are a pretty good match. The Mustang is heavier and can't put as much power down, but it turns better and throttle-steers very nicely, plus the throttle response is instant.

A lot of my friends and racing buddies are Ford engineers, and I've spent a LOT of time wrenching and setting up Mustangs.

DG

 

[T2Small]

We noticed the "issues" with the rear axle in a big way on the stang.

His next bit of work was going to be taming that rear axle, but he looked at the budget and realized that a competitive 1G could be thrown together for a lot less.

 

[DG-FNR]

Sadly, a Mustang with a properly-sorted rear axle - which isn't really all that expensive; Mustangs have the advantage of economies of scale (there's a lot of them) so parts tend to be cheaper - is going to be a good deal more competitive than any 1G DSM.

At the Regional level, driver skill and experience plays much, much stronger than car type. You have to look at National-level results (and even then, you have to know the particulars at that event to get the whole story) to get an idea of how well different car models compare to each other.

The 2G cars have had quite a bit of success, but the 1G cars have never done particularly well.

Given the choice between a Mustang and a 2G, I want to know what the course looks like before I answer. Given the choice between a 1G and a Mustang, I'll take the Mustang.

DG

 

[mach1one]

I've got a friend with a 97 cobra w/ lots of suspension mods hooked on autocross. We're both in SM. His mods include coilovers, brembo brake upgrade, panhard bar, tri-link, and other misc. things I can't remember.

So far my 1G AWD w/ only GR2s and 1" rear swaybar has been competitive. We're back and forth. First event I beat him by .2; second event he beat me by .7. Considering the few things I have done to the susp compared to his, I think it's its impressive. Plus both courses have been pretty wide open. The second course I spent a great deal of time above 4500 in 2nd.
My car does pretty well, there's plenty of room. It rolls like crazy and lately I"ve been three-wheeling alot. Once my hotbits coillovers get here + tires, then it'll be on

 

[khanlon]

What class are you talking about for this comparison? I think for STX the 1G would be the way to go. The mustang just could not put down power well without the suspension mods listed above, which are illegal for STX. Combine this with a 245 width tire limitation and I think the Mustang would not be able to use any of its power effectively.

The 1G already has a similar formula to the current class leader in STX, the WRX. Both the 1G and the WRX have the same front suspension design, and similar drivetrains. Where the 1G has the advantage over the WRX is with a lower CG, a narrower width, and lighter weight. The WRX on the other hand has more power than a 1G in STX trim. Both cars can fit a 245 width tire without any problems. I'm actually quite surprised no one has tried to campaign a 1G on a national STX level yet. For regional level autocross I think the the 1G has plenty of potential to consistently be at the top of the class, and on any level would be a much better STX choice than a mustang.

 

[zephyr_8]

It would be kinda cool to see a stx 1g running national. I think they would be competitive if done right.

The power steering cut-out actually isnt that bad, once you get used to it. And the turbo lag never really seemed to bother me but i usually kept it pretty high up in the power band. Either way I thought it was great fun. Maybe I'm biased.

Mach1one- Do you guys both run at the old airport Tvr-Tac events? Because we both know how "wonderful" that surface is, seems like you would have a little advantage over the cobra, although they usually put together some fast courses. I was usually using the top of 2nd and sometimes into third. I'll have to run some this summer and make it two 1gs, and get beaten.(its been awhile)

 

[mach1one]

Yeah, I take it your from the area. They found a company that now sweeps the venue the night before, so it's not nearly as bad as it use to be. The first group always got the priviledge of "sweeping the course". Are you in school in PA?

But the 2 courses so far this year have been pretty open. W/ a 14b during autocross I get great spool, my car always moves out nicely.

The mods I have keep me out of STX I thought STX rules keep it to a 225 tire? Unless it's changed? http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/

 

[jtmcinder]

I thought STX rules keep it to a 225 tire? Unless it's changed? http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/

STS is limited to 225s. STX has always allowed 245s.

Having driven both a WRX and a 1G in approximately STX trim, I'll take the WRX. If they would allow changes to the CBV, then I'll take a 2G. The only DSM to ever run Nationals in ST was a 2G.

- Jtoby

 

[khanlon]

Having driven both a WRX and a 1G in approximately STX trim, I'll take the WRX.

For what reasons is this? I am curious to see what differences you noticed from the driver's seat. Were both cars similarly prepped?

 

[4pistons]

I Autocross a modded 1G in a local sports car club that does not use SCCA classes and rules. Last year I placed consistantly 3rd and 4th in the "B" group which was usually a little above midpoint of lap times. That said, a 1G certainly isn't a race car. It has a lot of shortcomings not the least of which are the strut suspension and limited tire size. It is a REALLY fun street car, with the mods I have, and I love driving it on both street and track. I do realize that it will never be the fastest on either but it does put a smile on my face!

I think I read something that DG said that puts Autocrossing into perspective - "Do you want just have fun or do you really want to win?"

Rick - '91 GSX Modded for fast and fun!

 

[jtmcinder]

Both had camber plates, decent shocks, Kumho MXs, and that's about it. The 1G would not turn in and then pushed on exit. They were about equal in power. The 1G was a bit better in the high-speed sweepers, but anything involving transitions went to the WRX by a lot. It's really easy to drive. It was the first time that I could actually feel the difference between a car with a solid chassis and the over-cooked pasta we all drive.

- Jtoby

 

[zephyr_8]

So Jtoby, from what your saying the wrx was better than the dsm because for the most part the wrx's chassis was stiffer? I'm curious because I have reinforced my chassis a good bit(and plan more). Also could alignment make a difference? (I remember reading somewhere that you suggested alot of front camber) The wrx I drove didn't seem to handle as well as my car(although I have driven my car for a year and the wrx for like a week so im a little more used to mine)

Yeah Mach1one I lived in huntsville for 19 years. I used to run autocrosses alot, in my blue 1g fwd eclipse. But I got into karts alot and then autocrosses seemed slow and didnt give quite the adrenaline rush. Yeah I'm in school(wyotech) in PA. I want to run and probably will but I know I will get thrown in a class with faster cars or something because of my mods. That and some other things I'll be doing soon.

 

[mach1one]

So are you going to be in hsv over the summer running Street Modified? There's usually about 3-4 of us in SM. May 21st & 22nd is the next event.

 

[jtmcinder]

So Jtoby, from what your saying the wrx was better than the dsm because for the most part the wrx's chassis was stiffer? I'm curious because I have reinforced my chassis a good bit(and plan more).

Then you can't run in STX, so the question is moot. You should actually be in FP.

- Jtoby

 

[zephyr_8]

Jtoby, I never really intended to run in a certain class, I was just wondering what your input would be. I always like reading your posts and I think I have learned a good bit from them.

Mach1one I won't be back until July. I think I am legal for sm, but I'm not sure. I'll just run what they throw me in.

 

[mavisky]

It's much easier to classify for SM with a dsm than almost anything else given the typical nature of most people's modifications. I could run SP if I were to put my stock bcs back on and install a rear seat for instance and my car is well short of a racecar.

 

[jtmcinder]

Hey, don't get me wrong. I am actually considering FP for my own 2G. It might be a lot of fun. You'd be destroyed beyond the regional level (914s and gutted M3s), but if you treat it as a hobby, you could have a blast. And high on the list would be a cage or doing things like foaming the pillars and frame, because our torsional stiffness is terrible, especially if you have a sun-roof (as I do). Plus the wide-open suspension options could allow you to set the car up for rallycross in the off season. And getting down to 2500# would do wonders at the drag-strip. All in all, mega giggles.

With that said, SM is much more typical. And not all that different from FP when you think about it. Death by Bimmer. The question is whether you want said Bimmer to have carpets.

- Jtoby

 

[zephyr_8]

I guess I'll run FP then because I have seam welded the rear three quarters of my unibody and put in a 4 point cage, braced to the strut towers, and i plan on welding up the subframes and front 1/3 of the car this summer. No sunroof. That and its gutted, I pulled quite a bit of stuff out. My car is rediculously stiff torsionaly. The things a rock. I'll have lightweight seats soon, I just need to get some sheet aluminum and start attacking it with pullmaxes and english wheels and hammers and stuff. Bring on the M3s!

What is foaming the pillars? I have never heard of that. When I welded up the seams on the floor and especially the trunk and rockers it really seemed to tighten up. I could see the difference in how much it flexed.