15.5 Seconds- What am I doing wrong?

[WES_393]

I am running Valvoline racing VR1 20w50 synthetic. The engine does still have oil squirters and has only 3000 miles on the bottom end. Every oil change I run magnet through the oil and find only a few grains of metal. I'm currently looking into getting a new set of revised lifters and throwing them in. When they stop ticking, the engine is completely quiet. So I do believe it's possible they could be contributing to the strange knock readings. I'll definitely start logging knock voltage and sum as well, then post up a new log.

 

[blue blaze]

Why don't you run a race map and leave that map as a street map?

At the track the cell real e85 and real e98. and whatever race gas you would like. then you can run a much more aggressive tune with minimal knock.

Also suspension is everything , to get that car hooked up and going straight under some decent boost.


The mile high city is a beast and its tuff to go fast up here

 

[WES_393]

My overall plan is to install a tank to rail kit, ss filter, and somewhere around 1200cc injectors. Even if I was comfortable running Ethanol in the stock fuel system, my injectors are nowhere near large enough to support a 16g.

 

[jrohner]

My overall plan is to install a tank to rail kit, ss filter, and somewhere around 1200cc injectors. Even if I was comfortable running Ethanol in the stock fuel system, my injectors are nowhere near large enough to support a 16g.

I tune an Evo running 12.5 on 680 injectors on E85 @ 24psi of boost, I'm sure your 15 second car would handle it just fine with those injectors.

 

[Ozone302]

Honestly, I think the biggest contributor to your time is the altitude. Also you REALLY need to work on those 60' times. If you can learn to launch good with that clutch you'll be good. I don't think you'd be going much quicker on your setup though. My mustang ran a 13.2 in Arizona and when I moved here to Denver I took it to bandimere and ran a 14.8. So almost 2 seconds slower just from the altitude. Just my .02

 

[WES_393]

I tune an Evo running 12.5 on 680 injectors on E85 @ 24psi of boost, I'm sure your 15 second car would handle it just fine with those injectors.

15 second car or 15 second driver?

But you are correct, my 660's would be able to handle the airflow I'm pushing. However, the weakest links in the fuel system would be the composite fuel filter (which doesn't play well with Ethanol) and banjo fitting (which is restrictive). I know where to get the banjo delete kit, but what about a SS fuel filter that would link up to the stock fuel line? If I had that I would be much more comfortable running E85. I've seen too many E85 disaster threads...

To get a bit back on topic, I'm going to swap out my nasty stock lifters with some revised ones and I'll do some pulls. Hopefully it will make at least somewhat of a difference. If not, at least I can stop pulling my hair out from this ticking.

 

[We're on Boost]

I know where to get the banjo delete kit, but what about a SS fuel filter that would link up to the stock fuel line? If I had that I would be much more comfortable running E85.

Do you mean you would like to keep the stock steel tube line that goes from the stock fuel filter back almost to the tank? Or do you want to replace that whole run from the tank to the fuel rail with new stuff?
STM (Street-Tuned) offers a kit of parts that go from tank to fuel rail and include a nice Fuel Lab fuel filter. Seems to me though that there is a problem with the fitting on the aft end of it not fitting on the flared end of the short pipe coming out of the tank from the fuel pump. I don't remember what you do to get around that.
I found that if you just want to go from hose-barb to hose-barb with a good quality rubber hose that is alky resistant, you can use 5/16" Goodyear J30R9 rubber hose with the special (but cheap) hose clamps that are made for 5/16 inch "fuel injection" hose. The mitsu barbs are long enough that you can put 2 of these clamps on each one for redundancy. In one place I dremel-tooled off the crimp collar from one of the stock mitsu hose fittings so I could reuse the barb with new J30R9 hose and clamps.
In another place I used all new -6 Russell Pro-Classic hose and fittings. The Pro-Classic hose is easy and nice to work with (unlike the SS braid hose which is horrible to work with). But the fittings - I got the swivel type which have an internal rubber O-ring which is supposed to seal them where they swivel - but the ones I had didn't seal! They did eventually quit dripping. I think it took about 6 months. Sheesh!

 

[WES_393]

I was talking about using the stock steel fuel line along with an SS fuel filter (like the one they sell from STM). But your saying to use barb fittings on the fuel line and fuel filter, and then just connect them with appropriate fuel hose? Seems to me that would work well if only I could find AN to barb fittings.

A small update. I just got done replacing the sketchy lifters the machine shop installed with some Topline revised lifters. It took a little while for them to pump up and stop clacking, but they are now incredibly quiet at idle and while cruising! Here is a quick log. I know my coolant temps are 10* lower and intake temps are 15-20* lower than the other logs, but the reduction in knock I think still shows they might have been an issue. Once I take another log tomorrow I'll know for sure. But I have noticed a slight pattern now that knock has dropped some more, which is that the knock begins when the turbo begins to spool.

I also pulled the plugs in a bit more, inspected the wires, and used some more dielectric grease. The butt dyno approves of the changes made! For diagnosing sake, I even did a compression test with the end result being absolutely perfect across the board. I tried to find the knock sum and voltage with no luck. I'm logging raw knock of 1,2,3,4 but have no idea what these mean or how to use them.

 

[We're on Boost]

The log 4 does look better. Wish I knew what parameters ECMlink uses to calculate that "horsepower" number. Your "horsepower" gets up to about 240 already at 4300 rpm for crum sake which is nice power that low. But then it just stays at 240hp the rest of the way up. The hp doesn't go up with the revs because the boost is falling all that way, airflow stays constant around 2000 MAFraw because the boost is falling. It falls all the way to about 13psi at 6700rpm. It's as if the turbo is maxed out already before you even hit 5000 rpm. Just seems like a 16g would hold up better than that.

You know on the fuel lines, I had the problem that I could not get my fittings apart back where the line comes out of the tank. That's where I left the fittings screwed together and dremeled off the crimp collars and put on new hose with clamps. If you can get all your fittings apart I wouldn't necessarily recommend doing it the way I did. But I do like the final result I got. I did reuse the long steel line under the car, but I still have the stock filter and banjo on there. Just in case it helps any I'm going to post 3 pics of how the final result of this looks on my car back at the tank (1g). These pics have a lot of detail if you look at them full size.

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[WES_393]

Yeah, like I said earlier Link was estimating 280hp at 10-15psi and now only estimating 240hp. I know it's really just an estimate and nothing to put all your chips on, but the car is definitely much faster than before. So the lower HP reading is strange. The boost estimate is also a bit off as the boost doesn't start to seriously drop until about 5-6k and never goes below 17-18psi according to my Glowshit mechanical gauge. Above 5k the car seems to stop pulling as hard, but still keeps on going.

Please do post the pics. I wouldn't mind keeping everything stock from the sending unit up until the fuel filter. If I could somehow fit STM's SS fuel filter between the rail and stock fuel lines, that would be optimal. I really don't think a 16g powered car needs -6an braided fuel lines to the rail. It would be nice, but if I can get away with less I would like to.

 

[We're on Boost]

On the fuel line fittings, I think that Emery at STM can pretty much tell you what will work and what won't - except that I don't think he sells the J30R9 hose which is basically the highest quality you can get from a regular parts store. I don't remember what all the problems were, but what I did was partly because I wanted to reuse the long steel line, and partly because I couldn't get the 2 fittings apart back near the tank.

 

[WES_393]

That looks like some quality work! Those barb fittings are exactly what I need (plus 2 that are AN-Barb). What size are they? Thanks for all the help so far!

 

[my dreamt dsm]

Hey Tuners, I finally made it to the track today. It was the first time I've raced my Talon and was hoping to at least break 13's. But I was horribly disappointed with the best run of 15.5. My mods are in profile, but the most important things to note are a 2.0L engine, stock head, small 16g on 20ish PSI (spikes to 22, drops to 20, then falls to ~11 by redline). I also have a South Bend SS TZ clutch (which is part of my issue).
it was because I was a bit nervous, or if it really is a grippy little thing. Anybody have any tips about how to get off the line without bogging with such a clutch?

I think seat time and a little adjustment in the tune would help. I never expect much when it's my first time, it kills hope!
My slip speaks for itself.

 

[We're on Boost]

Those barb fittings are exactly what I need (plus 2 that are AN-Barb). What size are they?

Well the barbs (like the barb in the fuel pump pic) are the original ones that were inside of the original OEM hose from 1990. You normally don't see them because they are inside the OEM hose and have a steel collar around the outside that has had the beejeebers crimped out of it to grip the hose. That made up the stock hose assembly that was in the car since new. I took the crimp collar off by cutting through one side of the collar lengthwise, prying it apart a little, enough to loosen the collar so I could rotate the collar 180 degrees so I could get at the other side with the dremel and cut through it. Then the collar is easy to pry way apart and it will come off at that point. Then you can take off the old hose and clean up the barb for use with the new hose. I still have one of the collars lying around - when I get a chance I'll take a pic of that so you can see what I did to it.
Anyway, the barb is the perfect size for 5/16" ID hose. The OEM hose I imagine must be 8mm ID. You can see in the 2nd pic some lettering on my new hose, 5/16" (7.9mm). You can also partially see that the hose clamps I used are marked 13 to I think 15 mm which is the hose OD size range they are for. These clamps stay round as long as you don't use them outside of their size range, they have rolled edges, the band is not perforated, and they do not have a worm-gear. Don't use the worm gear type clamps that are common. Gotta use these "fuel injection hose clamps". You can get them from NAPA for about a buck apiece, or Summit Racing if you want to order online.
The hose, if you google it, you will find out it is very high quality stuff even though there is no external braid, and it is made for use with this type of clamp. I think I bought the Goodyear hose from Autozone. Goodyear spec sheet:

http://www.goodyearep.com/ProductsDetail.aspx?id=5144

By the way the Knock numbers in Log 4, I don't get it at all, why are there 4 of them, and the numbers look funny.

 

[WES_393]

By the way the Knock numbers in Log 4, I don't get it at all, why are there 4 of them, and the numbers look funny.

Those knock readings are the RawKnock values that I was logging in an attempt to find Knock Sum and Knock Voltage. Like I said earlier I have no clue what they mean or what to do with them, so I took them back off. Thanks for the info on the fuel lines! Looks like I'll be trying to find some old fuel lines.

Quick question if anyone cares to answer. I've been looking into running E85 with my current setup. I have 660cc injectors and will be replacing the fuel filter and installing a filter-to-rail kit. It seems my 660's would be enough to support up to 36 lbs/min (I'm currently pulling only 32 lbs/min). Now, from the DSMLink Wiki my 660cc's would flow like 442cc injectors (660*0.67=442). Then plug that into the standard global equation and I get 450/442-1=.018 or +1.8%. Yet, if I plug the 442cc into Link's fuel calculator and use 9.8:1 as the stoichiometric ratio, it gives me +53%! (was I supposed to leave it as 660 and set Stoich to 9.8?). To throw me for even more of a loop, this link (http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-tuning-ecu/253452-e85-injector-max-lb-min-calculations.html) says to use -11% global adjustment. So, uh, which one is it?? Also, I've read in a few places that my wideband will read 14.7 at idle yet I'll really be idling at 9.8? Then how do you guys tune your A/F ratio? Human calculator? Or should my wideband read differently?

I've done my research for the actual hardware part of it (turns out you don't actually NEED SS fuel filters and 2,000cc injectors ), just really confused on the tuning part.

 

[We're on Boost]

Here's a couple pics of one of my old crimp collars after I slit it along both sides with a dremel disk, spread it apart, and pulled it off of the old hose. This was from the short hose back at the tank.

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Here's a pic from the Russell catalog that shows how a swivel type fitting is made. The 2 fittings I used for fuel rail outlet to FPR external braid hose both leaked as stated a few posts back. As near as I can tell they were leaking from what it points to as the "Viton O-ring". At first I thought they were leaking at the flare, which is not labeled in this pic. But I bought soft aluminum flare seals, which were recommended by twicks69. The fittings still leaked. So I think it was the internal O-ring that was leaking. Too bad, these fittings are really nice looking and easy to put together. I think if I were to try fittings like this again I would get the non-swivel type which would not have that O-ring at all. Twicks69 told me that he has had leaky fuel fittings multiple times in the past and that it isn't just one brand that leaks.

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[jrohner]

Don't waste time or money on your car; learn to drive it first. The only work you should be doing on the car is on your timing map.



I was at 475awhp with my Holset with the stock fuel filter & all stock lines. Heck, all the cars I've worked on have stock lines, filter, and FPRs running E85.

 

[WES_393]

Don't waste time or money on your car; learn to drive it first. The only work you should be doing on the car is on your timing map.



I was at 475awhp with my Holset with the stock fuel filter & all stock lines. Heck, all the cars I've worked on have stock lines, filter, and FPRs running E85.

Learning how to launch: Check. Been practicing daily and feel I have a much better grasp on it.

Timing map: Uncheck. I've pulled a few degrees of timing from only a couple specific points. Otherwise it's a stock Evo 8 timing map and I still knock for reasons nobody can seem to pinpoint. So I don't think there is much room for improvement while running 91 dino-piss.

E85: I would much appreciate it if someone could answer my question about the E85 global fuel adjustment (2 posts back). I have 3 different numbers and plugging in those numbers just to see which one works seems like a very bad idea. Otherwise I would be completely comfortable filling up with E85.

I'm taking a trip up to the track again tomorrow so we'll see if the changes I've made (to the car and driver) will make a difference.

 

[Scoobystyl]

Quick question if anyone cares to answer. I've been looking into running E85 with my current setup. I have 660cc injectors and will be replacing the fuel filter and installing a filter-to-rail kit. It seems my 660's would be enough to support up to 36 lbs/min (I'm currently pulling only 32 lbs/min). Now, from the DSMLink Wiki my 660cc's would flow like 442cc injectors (660*0.67=442). Then plug that into the standard global equation and I get 450/442-1=.018 or +1.8%. Yet, if I plug the 442cc into Link's fuel calculator and use 9.8:1 as the stoichiometric ratio, it gives me +53%! (was I supposed to leave it as 660 and set Stoich to 9.8?). To throw me for even more of a loop, this link (http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-tuning-ecu/253452-e85-injector-max-lb-min-calculations.html) says to use -11% global adjustment. So, uh, which one is it?? Also, I've read in a few places that my wideband will read 14.7 at idle yet I'll really be idling at 9.8? Then how do you guys tune your A/F ratio? Human calculator? Or should my wideband read differently?

I've done my research for the actual hardware part of it (turns out you don't actually NEED SS fuel filters and 2,000cc injectors ), just really confused on the tuning part.

For 660 injectors multiply that by .63 and youll get 416 so set global to 0% since thats as low as you can set it, and just leave everything in gasoline ratio 14.7, those injectors are really too small for e85 in my opinion on a 16g you should atleast get a set of 1200's, if you need any help let me know im always willing to lend a hand

 

[SBstar]

I'm not sure I'd mess with E85 on that small of injectors honestly. I'm sure your local track has fuel, I'd run your tank down low so when you get to the track you can add some higher octane fuel (116 or whatever). This is how we all used to do it before the E85 craze anyways. Forgive me for not reading through the thread if you've already gone over all this stuff but I'll throw out a couple suggestions for your next track visit.

Completely ensure you have zero boost leaks, check that knock-off bov for sure, I went from 12.47 to 12.25 on a 14b setup by crushing my 1g bov due to it leaking originally. Boost leaks kill performance.

New plugs, gapped correctly. I know that was discussed up above, but throw new ones in there. Some say new plugs for every track visit. How old are those wires too?

Compression? Sounds like it's a freshened motor but make sure it's all good in there.

Tire pressure, as you figure out your launch technique start playing with tire pressure. On street tires, no burnout! I know AWD so you probably aren't trying anyways. But start at your normal pressure and take a little out until you find a sweet spot, not under 25psi as a general rule.

Shift points, these are tricky to get right but can make a huge difference. I would start around 6500ish for your setup/turbo and go from there. This also leads to your linkage/clutch, make sure everything is setup properly for smooth shifts.

Just a few things to take with you next time you go. Keep working on that tune as well of course.

 

[RyanR79]

I think with your setup i think you could easily sit in the 14's just because of the altitude, i wouldnt get down on your self to much it takes a lot of practice to drive at Bandi or at any track. My car was at 23psi on a 20g and i had 1.7 60ft at a 13.34@ 105 with cracked radiator and exhaust manifold and that was not tuned professionaly. So go to more test and tune nights and practice!!

 

[GSTurbo1]

Dude my 2g 420a is quicker than that... your launch off the line was bogus. You need to spool that turbo up and get all of you power off the line.

my hahn racecraft s16g will be completely spooled at 3000 rpm @ 20 lbs, you have a major boost leak somewhere. That pressure is escaping hardcore.

 

[jrohner]

Learning how to launch: Check. Been practicing daily and feel I have a much better grasp on it.

Great, that will be your biggest improvement, as every tenth in the 60' can possibly mean 2 tenths in the 1/4 or even 1/8 from what I've seen.

Timing map: Uncheck. I've pulled a few degrees of timing from only a couple specific points. Otherwise it's a stock Evo 8 timing map and I still knock for reasons nobody can seem to pinpoint. So I don't think there is much room for improvement while running 91 dino-piss.

You're not too rich are you? That's about the only time I show knock on E85. My 2G hated being anything richer than 12:1, yet my 1G doesn't really like being any leaner than 12:1. If your car misfires at all that might register as knock too.

E85: I would much appreciate it if someone could answer my question about the E85 global fuel adjustment (2 posts back). I have 3 different numbers and plugging in those numbers just to see which one works seems like a very bad idea. Otherwise I would be completely comfortable filling up with E85.

I would tune those injectors as though they were stock 450's. I take the real injector size and divide it by 1.4 for E85 and then round that number down to the nearest setting and that gets it pretty close.

 

[WES_393]

Just ran 14.374 at 95mph. 1.945 60 foot time still bogging a bit off the line. Hopefully the rain lets up so I can make a few more passes with the launch control set higher.

Edit: I wasn't able to break the 14.37. I ran consistent 14.4's the whole night at 95-96mph. The track was fairly wet and with launch control raised to 5250rpm I was spinning my cheap all-season tires pretty good. My best 60ft time was 1.6 flat, but I got locked out of 3rd and had to shift into 4th just to finish the race. Not sure what that was about, my Jack's trans and SB clutch are brand new and haven't given me problems before or since. It was a real bummer since the Mustang I was racing was easily 2 car lengths behind me at the 1/8th and finished with a lower 13 second run. We spoke after the race (he noticed I missed 3rd) and he assured me it would have been close had I not let off. So it seems my 13 second run got away. Otherwise the car ran amazing. Very little knock even with the boost control turned up a bit.

But hey, low 14's (almost 13's) at 8,000 ft corrected DA, 3310lb race weight, and 91 pump gas? Not too shabby for a noob. Next step is to go E85 (still on the fence about how to go about it) and get some more seat time in. Thanks for all the constructive criticism so far! But enough chatter, here's a video of one of my runs from today (nice take down on a Camaro). I didn't get a decent video of the 14.3, but here is the time slip as well.

(Sorry for the shaky video)

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(I was car 842)

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[We're on Boost]

Wow, much better times than before. I would say the driver mod has been properly installed!
With the same speeds as before but no 3rd gear, you must also be getting more power.
Remembering that you were wondering if the noisy lifters could have contributed to false knock, this is a subject that has gone around endlessly in many threads, but I ran across a comment specifically saying yes about this on the Digital Tuning website, here:

Parameter Meanings

The specific numbers might be different for 2g, this knock article was written for 1g.

I also found in the ECMlink wiki a decent explanation of rawknock1,2,3,4 which is for 2g. Apparently you can read each cylinder individually this way which is cool if it works. I would think though that lifter noise would happen at a different time than detonation noise or piston slap noise, so it would probably be difficult to use this to for sure say that "the lifter in cyl so-and-so is freaking my knock sensor". Anyway it is here, down near the bottom of the page:

dsmlinkloggableparams [ECMTuning - wiki]

I didn't see any way to log actual knock sensor voltage though.