WTF Valve reliefs?????

[Smokin80]

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO funny story. (These are manley pistons i am talking about just so you know)

Due to a shipping error when i built my head i didnt get to put my ti retainers on and since i didnt know how long it was going to be till i got new ones i built it anyway. NOW i am putting the ti retainers on and instead of screwing around with doing the springs with the head on i just pulled it. SUCKS cause the motor is bran new. But such is life.

I pull the head off and there on the pistons i see little marks from valve contact on the intake side. Before you ask i am 100% positve the motor was timed correctly and there is no way the motor was ever turned over with the cams installed and no timing belt. So i start looking at the pistons and notice that the exhaust side valve reliefs are closer to the cylinder wall than the intake side...it is not a substantial difference but you can tell if you look very closely Shouldnt that be the other way around? If they were i dont think the marks would be in the pistons. There are no signs of contact on the valves by the way. The arrow that says front of engine is still on the pistons and it points to the front of the engine(timing side....RIGHT????)

Is it possible that there is an error with the pistons and they were labled wrong or is there something i am missing here? I dont want to go installing 280 cams that open for longer and lift higher when im apparently already having piston to valve contact.


SO CONFUSED/PISSED

Help me out guys!!!

Thanks

Garrett

 

[mach4g63t]

The 'front' of the motor is the timing belt side, yes. And also, the intake valves of our motors are slightly larger than the exhaust, but not vice versa. Did the person who built the motor put them together properly? I know the wrist pin is offset to one direction or another, so I'm not sure how that would effect the cylinders. Lots of piston slap? Is the car still starting and running? Compression check it if it's not.

 

[Smokin80]

I know that the intake is bigger than the exhaust...that is what im saying. The valve reliefs seem the other way around.

Car was running when i parked it...170 compression

also..just noticed that the damge get less and less as you go from cylinder 1 to 4...... number 4 BARELY got touched. SO WEIRD and like i said...only on the intake side


and just for the record...i dont think i have ever ever ever seen an engine where the exhaust valve is bigger... But that is besides the point.

HELP ME!!!!

 

[Smokin80]

Sent manley pictures and they called me back an hour later saying that the pistons look fine and i should just re time the motor and there should be no problem. AKA the belt must have jumped a couple teeth.

So i guess that is what im going to do...just clean up the burrs on the pistons and everything should be fine....I HOPE

SOOOO here is a picture of how i have the timing set.... Could you guys just give me a thumbs up so i feel better about this. I am suuuure this is right but just in case i have something screwed up in my head....have a look for me.

Thanks guys. Crossing my fingers that this works out

Garrett

 

[1glaserturbo]

Oil pump looks half - tooth off to me...

 

[Smokin80]

i think its just the angle of the picture....disc brake is in the way to get a straight on pic of that.

It lines up perfect if you look at it straight....

cam gears look good tho???

 

[97 4G63]

Cam gears look fine they're right were they're supposed to be..
Did you get any bent valves?

 

[Ravenous]

Half a tooth off?... How do you get off by half a tooth?


Did you have the head or block resurfaced? Could the initial setup of the surfacer tool (brain fart sorry) have caused to much material to be removed from the head or the block. If it was thinner at the timing gear side and thicker at the back I would think it could be the reason for the steady reduction of contact from one cylinder to the next.

 

[1glaserturbo]

Half a tooth off?... How do you get off by half a tooth?


Did you have the head or block resurfaced? Could the initial setup of the surfacer tool (brain fart sorry) have caused to much material to be removed from the head or the block. If it was thinner at the timing gear side and thicker at the back I would think it could be the reason for the steady reduction of contact from one cylinder to the next.

It's VERY possible to be half a tooth off. It's been done before by many including myself.

 

[Smokin80]

Cam gears look fine there rite were there suppose to be..
Did you get any bent valves?

Nope...took all the valves out this morning and they were fine...not a mark on them and straight as an arrow.

i think im gonna put her back together and run it....see what happens

 

[Ravenous]

I wasn't saying it couldn't be done, I'm just trying to figure it out. I may have very well set up my timing at half a tooth off. I have no balance shafts and I'm pretty sure that is the only one that could be half a tooth off... I could be wrong. It just never occurred to me, I always thought if it was within a tooth that was as good as it got.

 

[snox135]

Since you have it apart, you should check the piston to valve clearance. Here is a how to......

With the camshaft installed, remove the cylinder head from the block. Clean the combustion chamber and the top of the piston and valve reliefs. The cleaner the piston, the better the clay will stick to it.

Apply a strip of model clay 3/8" to ½" wide approximately ¼" thick to the pistons. The clay strip should be long enough to run across both the intake and exhaust valve reliefs. Applying a small amount of oil to the clay will prevent it from sticking to the valves as they press into it.

Reinstall the cylinder head with the head gasket that is going to be used. It will not be necessary to torque the head yet. All head gasket manufacturers can tell you what the compressed thickness of their gasket will be. Measure the gasket before you install it permanently and add the difference to the piston to valve clearance. Install a sufficient number of head bolts to secure the head in place while you are rotating the engine. Install the lifters and rocker arms on the cylinder you have prepared for the clearance check.

Adjust the rocker arms to their suggested clearance. If the camshaft you are checking uses hydraulic lifters, you must temporarily use solid lifters in their place. Hydraulic lifters bleed down and will provide a false measurement. Once the hydraulic lifters are replaced with solid lifters, adjust the lash to "zero." Be sure not to pre-load the valve spring. Be sure to reinstall the hydraulic lifters before starting the engine.

Now turn the engine over by hand in the normal direction of rotation. Be sure to rotate the engine over two times. This will be one complete revolution of the camshaft and assure you of an accurate reading on both the intake and exhaust. Remove the cylinder head from the block. Do this gently, so the clay is not disturbed. It may be stuck to the valves or combustion chamber, so be careful.

With a razor or sharp knife, slice the clay cleanly -lengthwise through the depression, and peel half of it off the piston. The clay's thickness in the thinnest area will represent the minimum piston to valve clearance.

To accurately check the thickness, use a set of dial calipers. The clay can also be measured close enough with a thin steel rule.

 

[mach4g63t]

Was it prior assembled with the pistons like that? I've hard of people re-using the pistons after bending some valves if the weren't too scarred up. Got any pictures of te valve reliefs? I would say you're good if the compression is good, valves are good, timing was good, etc etc etc.

 

[LunarEclips]

Half a tooth off?... How do you get off by half a tooth?


Did you have the head or block resurfaced? Could the initial setup of the surfacer tool (brain fart sorry) have caused to much material to be removed from the head or the block. If it was thinner at the timing gear side and thicker at the back I would think it could be the reason for the steady reduction of contact from one cylinder to the next.

I agree with this. I took my old head when building my motor to a machinest near my house and they resurfaced it too much on one side of the head somehow and he ended up clipping off some of the valves on my #1 cyclinder side of the motor. Possible that they didnt put the head on the machine right?

 

[BoostedTalonTS]

I agree with this. I took my old head when building my motor to a machinest near my house and they resurfaced it too much on one side of the head somehow and he ended up clipping off some of the valves on my #1 cyclinder side of the motor. Possible that they didnt put the head on the machine right?

^ x2
Another thing to consider would be the head gasket thickness that was originally used (although it still sounds like a head machining issue as you say that there is a difference between cylinders as far as valve contact gets 'better' from #1-#4)... The HG used can make and/or break any setup with a conbination of too much material removed from the head + thickness of any given head gasket.

Fresh build eh? -Too fresh for carbon to build up on the valves? -Have you checked the valve guides yet? -That's be my next step as you were already in the process of installing your TI retainers.

EDIT:
The only other thing I'd double check is that the crank's trigger plate is on facing the correct way... If it's accidentally installed backwards, the motor will run but the bottom end will be about 30* ahead of everything else... I witnessed a local DSMer make the same mistake while doing a BSEK and he experienced very minor valve contact that was audible once it was started but manually turned over just fine with no clearance issues what so ever.

GOOD LUCK!

 

[Defiant]

It's VERY possible to be half a tooth off. It's been done before by many including myself.

If you use that special split-toothed cog. It's usually kept for the LeMans cars, though. WTF

It's a full tooth, or nothing.

Still sounds like the slugs are in backward.

 

[LunarEclips]

If you use that special split-toothed cog. It's usually kept for the LeMans cars, though. WTF

It's a full tooth, or nothing.

Still sounds like the slugs are in backward.

Slugs? English please??

 

[Defiant]

Those bits which hold the proud ends of the gudgeon pins at the small end of the conrods, of course.

 

[drivemusicnow]

The valve reliefs would be on the wrong side if it was made for an EVO.

and definitely check the crank trigger plate. I've seen people do that before as well and caught them.

Oh, and slugs are pistons, which are connected to the proud meaning extending ends of the "gudgeon" which is a wrist pin on the conrod which is a connecting rod.

 

[Big Woo]

Without seeing a picture, I would have to agree that the pistons (slugs) are in backwards. If Manely uses an on center wrist pin (gudgeon pin) then there may not be a mark on the piston indicating forward.

It would have to be off in whole tooth increments, head surfacing and decking can make the movable timing marks appear off slightly from the static reference points, but they are all off in unison.

The most likely reason for the differing impact marks on pistons is due to non uniform valve heights, from a typical valve job/grind. However it could also be from a non square cylinder head or block deck surface, crank centerline problem, variable piston pin heights, crankshaft stroke consistency, variable connecting rod center to center distance, but I would bet on the first one.

Most machine shops just pull all the valves and grind them until they clean up, this may have required .015 be removed from one valve and .032 from another, and so on. The seats are typically cut in the same hap-hazard fashion, leaving some valve seats deeper than others when measured from the deck surface for example. The end result here is variable piston to valve clearance because all the valve are at different heights.

 

[Smokin80]

Well guys...i know this is an old thread but i figured id update it. I put the car all back together on that week and it went on to run an 11.47 at 124.2mph so it was running pretty decent. I am pulling the head in a week or two here to check things out and see how it went. I will let you know if anything similar happened.

thanks for all the replies. I was stressing over this in a big way that day.

 

[DoyoFCT]

take pics of the top of the pistons when you get the head off this time. I want to see the valve reliefs.

 

[sologst]

Your timing is right, for all of you internet mechanics your oil pump dose not matter it only has a mark on it to get you balance shafts in time and once you rotate the engine it is like every 10 revolution before it line back up correct, and if his timing was off and it hit the piston it would bend the valves, his piston is hitting when the closed but anyways my car has been ticking, it sounds like the lifter well I got sick of it and pull the head and had the same problem my intake valves have been hitting the relief’s, my motor is a freash built 2.0 with 1mm oversized valves and bc 280 cams with buschur racing spring and locks, the reason the valves are hitting the relief’s is because the head has been resurfaced I took a deber bit and cut the relief’s bigger and put a muilty layer head gasket on my car to give a little more clearance . it is doing good, so ether you block been deck or head been resurface or probably both when they built the motor and done a valve job on the head , you piston has a lot of material you can take a dermal and grind it a little bit deeper, get you a metal head gasket , take some play do put over the intake valve relief’s on the piston put the head back on it with 2 bolts rotate it then pull the head off check make sure you have enough clearance if you do clean the play do off clean every thing up and put it back together if it don’t the grind some more material until it has enough very easy process

 

[sologst]

damn i did not see that it was a old thread but if any one else has the problem above the fix, is your car picking up any knock?

 

[rampridersrider]

I had no idea it even mattered what position the oil pump gear was in when you didn't have balance shafts.