Wide band O2 sensors how good are they

[tunerdoc]

I have been reading more article that mention wide band O2 sensors.
How much difference do the y make?
Can they be tied in with a SAFC or do you need a stand alone system?
There are different manufacturers who's is best?

Thank you
Doc

 

[Nos~4G63]

Tuning with a wideband has always been popular but wideband 02 sensors were rather expensive. As more manufacturers are selling wideband kits the prices are dropping. Tuning with a wideband lets you tune for the actual air/fuel ratio that your engine will run best at and make the most power. The popular wideband 02 kits are coming with a way to monitor the sensor. Most come with a number read out and the AEM comes with a number readout on a gauge. I tihnk it is the best yet as you can install it in a pillar or wherever your other gauges are installed.

 

[c5chris]

The latest issue of Import Tuner has a good article and test for the latest Wideband O2 out in the market. ( I know, I2nr of all mags) The AEM Uego is said to be good for N/A and not for turbo purposes. I would look into the Innovate Wideband which allows you to log up to 44 minutes of run time and best of all, it costs almost the same as the pillar-mounted AEM.

 

[kpt4321]

A wideband and a logger will allow you to tune your car better than ever before.

 

[tanner261]

The latest issue of Import Tuner has a good article and test for the latest Wideband O2 out in the market. ( I know, I2nr of all mags) The AEM Uego is said to be good for N/A and not for turbo purposes. I would look into the Innovate Wideband which allows you to log up to 44 minutes of run time and best of all, it costs almost the same as the pillar-mounted AEM.

The O2 sensor does not care if your car is turbo or not.

 

[FourGdrvr]

AEM unit had a problem of reading rich readings during the test. AEM gauge type UEGO's (that come w/ 52mm meter) does not read below 11:1 a/f, and the test car was reading below that mark and aem unit would go offline. HKS a/f meter was closest to the Motec & NTK a/f meters as far as the readings went throughout the rpm band. Zeitronix did well also with an affordable price tag.

 

[c5chris]

AEM unit had a problem of reading rich readings during the test. AEM gauge type UEGO's (that come w/ 52mm meter) does not read below 11:1 a/f, and the test car was reading below that mark and aem unit would go offline. HKS a/f meter was closest to the Motec & NTK a/f meters as far as the readings went throughout the rpm band. Zeitronix did well also with an affordable price tag.

That's what I was trying to say in my other post.

Thanks for the figures bro.

 

[Blk_99gst]

The O2 sensor does not care if your car is turbo or not.

No, the wideband o2 sensor does not car if your car is turbo or not. Some KEY points though:
1) You'll want to tune for different a/f ratios between a turbo and non turbo. We usually shoot for 11:1 on pump gas for turbos. I don't know what non-turbos shoot for.

2) How long the o2 wideband o2 sensor lasts depends on how much heat it sees. If you were to say run in the stock front o2 sensor location, I don't think it would last very long. If you run it attached to the back of the tailpipe, it will last a lot longer.

3) Tieing into point#2, the wideband o2 sensor needs to read pre-cat exhaust gases. So if you run the cat, then you need to have the wideband o2 sensor read before the cat. If you run a test pipe, then you cat attach the wideband o2 sensor to the back of the tailpipe (the LM-1 has a special clamp that lets you do it.

4) I think it's VERY important to some way log rpm at the same time as the wideband reading. The lm-1 has an inductive clamp which can do this.

If you can't tell, I go thte LM-1 wideband unit and LOVE it. Very nice. Works very well; although to really tune on the spot/in the car, I would recommend a laptop that you can upload the data to and see immediately.

 

[kpt4321]

No, the wideband o2 sensor does not car if your car is turbo or not. Some KEY points though:
1) You'll want to tune for different a/f ratios between a turbo and non turbo. We usually shoot for 11:1 on pump gas for turbos. I don't know what non-turbos shoot for.

Not only that, but not all turbo cars are going to be the same either.

My DSM, with the SMIC and higher boost (~17 psi) likes to be richer, around 10:1 or 10.5:1.

On the other hand, I actually just got back from tuning a turbo Integra (traps about 105 mph, stock motor, 14b), and I tuned it to ~11.6:1.

A non-turbo car, you want to be arond 12.5:1 or 12.7:1. In that range, you'll generally make the most power.

Factory turbo cars usually run REALLY rich; stock DSM's are in the nines, and I believe the STi is as well. Some factory NA cars run pretty lean, around 14:1.

 

[deeeep]

i have a wide band for sale it coust me 450 from zetronix . but i dont have the o2 sensore but you can get one from a dealer i'll sell it for 300 or will trade for a 1 g intake manifold from a 93

 

[Wobble]

11.1?? man thats pretty ritch? by pump gas you talking 91 or 93?

ive always use 11.4ish..

different strokes i guess..

 

[Blk_99gst]

My DSM, with the SMIC and higher boost (~17 psi) likes to be richer, around 10:1 or 10.5:1.

Kyle - Is that right or a typo? 10:1; that's crazy rich! Richer then stock. What will it do at a little leaner, like 11:1? Does it start to knock or lose timing?

 

[Blk_99gst]

Here's a log I did for a friend; 2g gst, evo big 16g, walbro 255. This was done with my LM-1 with the rpm hook up. You can see even with a bigger turbo and more boost, the stock open loop is pretty rich, ranging from 10.3 to 10.7. This was a 3rd gear pull.

 

[kpt4321]

Kyle - Is that right or a typo? 10:1; that's crazy rich! Richer then stock. What will it do at a little leaner, like 11:1? Does it start to knock or lose timing?

Stock is actually a bit richer, down in the 9's.

With the current mods, it will start to knock and pull timing if I go any leaner.

I need to hit the car with a wideband to double check though, but if I remember correctly is definately no leaner than mid 10's.

I am picking up my FMIC today, so that will all be changed soon.

 

[AWDLATIN]

If you already have an AFC, and do not have the funds to aquire an o2 wideband, a more economical route would be to do the blue wire mod. It is not accurate as a wideband because of the utilization of the stock o2 sensor and not the Bosch 5 wire, but it is close enough to tune with for the time being. Give it a try. Just tap the blue wire from the AFC to the o2 wire from the ECU. And as far as o2 readers go, contact RRE and let them know you want to buy this one:
http://www.zeitronix.com/

cRock makes some good shit.

 

[Blk_99gst]

If you already have an AFC, and do not have the funds to aquire an o2 wideband, a more economical route would be to do the blue wire mod.

OH MY *****! Stop spreading wrong info like this... :thumbdown Just when I thought this forum was getting better with correct advice, awdlatin comes out and gets so many things wrong in his post it's unbelievable... First off, blue wire mod; WORST idea ever. The safc draws too much current and will actually change the o2 voltage before the ecu gets it, therefore the ecu is reading the WRONG value. See the cut and paste article below for more detail. I've posted this cut and paste article SOO many times; seems like I have to do it every week because people still think the blue wire mode is a good idea.

It is not accurate as a wideband because of the utilization of the stock o2 sensor and not the Bosch 5 wire, but it is close enough to tune with for the time being.

No, it's not accurate, not even CLOSE. If you knew anything or read anything about tuning, then you would know from people who use a pocketlogger, and see the true ecu o2 voltage (not the blue wire mod voltage), that you can't even trust the true ecu o2 voltage. The narrowband o2 sensors on our cars is not to be trusted for wide open throttle tuning. You can't say .96 or .94 is too rich, you need to be at .92 or .90. Because that is NOT true. Each car is different, so .94 make be rich for one car and lean for another. Ask anyone or read any tuning post, and people say don't use o2 voltages to tune by. You can use them as a general reference, but don't use them as your only thing.

And a wideband o2 sensor is infinity better for tuning a car then looking at the voltage from a narrowband (our stock o2 sensors).

Give it a try. And as far as o2 readers go, contact RRE and let them know you want to buy this one

Please everyone ignore awdlatin's post and don't try anything he recommended. Blue wire mod = Very bad idea. Tuning by o2 voltages alone = Bad Idea. I wouldn't recommend putting any o2 reader in; many of them can change the o2 voltage. Just leave the signal alone, and get a pocketlogger so that you can read TRUE unaltered ecu o2 voltage, and read other things like timing advance and knock count if you are a 1g car. Or get an egt gauge, or a wideband. But there are lots of better tuning tools than the blue wire mod or a o2 reader.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blue Wire Mod Explained
Most voltmeters don't impose any effect on a circuit
because they are in the millions of ohms of resistance
range. If you want to meausure a the voltage of a low
resistance circuit this high resistance voltmeter is
not neccessary, and perhaps that was the design of the
AFC's blue wire mod. I'm not sure what that wire is
supposed to be used for anyway. For the o2 sensor, too
much current flows through the AFC, essentially
putting a load on the o2 sensor itself.

You might see a variation between the pocketlogger and
the afc, but more importantly, you will see a huge
difference if you put a switch on the blue wire. on
Watch the logger, and toggle the switch. Your o2's
will suddenly jump up to where they are supposed to
be. On my 420a NT talon the blue wire dropped the o2's
from .98 to .92 and caused the car to run extremely
rich in closed loop mode (with SAFC zeroed out).

 

[AWDLATIN]

First of all, this was a suggestion, if it does not meet your approval fine, but don't be a bi*** and over react. I only suggested this to be a alternate way of doing things until he can afford something better. As far as I am concerned he can EGT tune along with the voltages. Never mentioned that it was only way to tune. Nor did I mention that every car is the same as far as voltages is concerned, its all related to external issues like weather, timing, fuel mixture, octane etc etc. Oh, and I like the little paragraph on the very bottom quoting/peraphrasing (If you want to call it that) some one with a 420a motor I thought you said every car was different? Why even compare a 420 to a 4G63 when they aren't eve the same platform? Try deciphering the entire cotent/context of my message before you have a seizure. I recommend bitting on a stick a wearing a helmet before you suffer from another one. Calm down.

OH MY *****! Stop spreading wrong info like this... :thumbdown Just when I thought this forum was getting better with correct advice, awdlatin comes out and gets so many things wrong in his post it's unbelievable... First off, blue wire mod; WORST idea ever. The safc draws too much current and will actually change the o2 voltage before the ecu gets it, therefore the ecu is reading the WRONG value. See the cut and paste article below for more detail. I've posted this cut and paste article SOO many times; seems like I have to do it every week because people still think the blue wire mode is a good idea.


No, it's not accurate, not even CLOSE. If you knew anything or read anything about tuning, then you would know from people who use a pocketlogger, and see the true ecu o2 voltage (not the blue wire mod voltage), that you can't even trust the true ecu o2 voltage. The narrowband o2 sensors on our cars is not to be trusted for wide open throttle tuning. You can't say .96 or .94 is too rich, you need to be at .92 or .90. Because that is NOT true. Each car is different, so .94 make be rich for one car and lean for another. Ask anyone or read any tuning post, and people say don't use o2 voltages to tune by. You can use them as a general reference, but don't use them as your only thing.

And a wideband o2 sensor is infinity better for tuning a car then looking at the voltage from a narrowband (our stock o2 sensors).



Please everyone ignore awdlatin's post and don't try anything he recommended. Blue wire mod = Very bad idea. Tuning by o2 voltages alone = Bad Idea. I wouldn't recommend putting any o2 reader in; many of them can change the o2 voltage. Just leave the signal alone, and get a pocketlogger so that you can read TRUE unaltered ecu o2 voltage, and read other things like timing advance and knock count if you are a 1g car. Or get an egt gauge, or a wideband. But there are lots of better tuning tools than the blue wire mod or a o2 reader.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blue Wire Mod Explained
Most voltmeters don't impose any effect on a circuit
because they are in the millions of ohms of resistance
range. If you want to meausure a the voltage of a low
resistance circuit this high resistance voltmeter is
not neccessary, and perhaps that was the design of the
AFC's blue wire mod. I'm not sure what that wire is
supposed to be used for anyway. For the o2 sensor, too
much current flows through the AFC, essentially
putting a load on the o2 sensor itself.

You might see a variation between the pocketlogger and
the afc, but more importantly, you will see a huge
difference if you put a switch on the blue wire. on
Watch the logger, and toggle the switch. Your o2's
will suddenly jump up to where they are supposed to
be. On my 420a NT talon the blue wire dropped the o2's
from .98 to .92 and caused the car to run extremely
rich in closed loop mode (with SAFC zeroed out).

 

[Blk_99gst]

First of all, this was a suggestion, if it does not meet your approval fine, but don't be a bi*** and over react.

No, I'm going to over react to it because it was a totally incorrect thing to suggest, and someone needs to point that out before the poster and anyone else reads this thread and thinks the blue wire mod is a good idea because 1 person recommended it.

I only suggested this to be a alternate way of doing things until he can afford something better.

It's not even an alternate way to tune, it just isn't. First off, the safc is going to change the voltage on the o2 sensor wire, so you're tuning by an incorrect voltage to start with. Then the next question the guy is going to ask is, "O.K, I did the blue wire mod, so what voltage should I tune for." Are you then going to tell him that there is no absolute voltage to tune for because:

its all related to external issues like weather, timing, fuel mixture, octane etc etc.

So basically you tell him to tune for o2 voltages, but exactly what voltage he should hit will depend on all the above. That's great advice. Please keep giving that out.

Oh, and I like the little paragraph on the very bottom quoting/peraphrasing someone with a 420a motor I thought you said every car was different? Why even compare a 420 to a 4G63 when they aren't eve the same platform? Try deciphering the entire cotent/context of my message before you have a seizure.

Let me see if I can "decipher" it for the lesser intelligent. It's NOT motor dependent. Let's just concentrate on the few parts we're dealing with. We have an o2 sensor (doesn't matter if it's from a 420a, 4g63 or any other car) supplying a voltage via a wire to the ecu. As soon as you tap that line with any number of o2 sensor readers, the voltage on the line can change. The safc blue wire mod has been shown to change the voltage on the line by quite a bit. Not just from my cut and paste article above, but from other people in this forum who has removed it and found their o2 voltage to have gone up. So do you still want to complain that the blue wire mod is "motor" dependent? Whether my example used a 420a or a 4g63? Yeah, you keep fighting that battle...

I found this post just for you awdlation. Read it and tell me that you still would recommend the blue wire mod. My cut and past article has gotten many people to undo their blue wire mods. I'm trying to help as many people as I can. So I do get pissed when I find someone who recommends the blue wire mod.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1027264&postcount=10

Calm down.

I will if you (and the other un-informed so-called tuners) stop making clearly wrong suggestions...

 

[AWDLATIN]

So basically you tell him to tune for o2 voltages, but exactly what voltage he should hit will depend on all the above. That's great advice. Please keep giving that out.

Nope, I was just giving you some what of a simplistic list of some things that determine how a car runs. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want to insinuate that those things on that little list doesn't matter, then you must be the first DSMer to have an Artificially intelligent ECU, whereby it can automatically asses everything out of its metric and 100% tune itself without any intervention by the driver utilizing a standalone or wideband.

I found this post just for you awdlation. Read it and tell me that you still would recommend the blue wire mod. My cut and past article has gotten many people to undo their blue wire mods. I'm trying to help as many people as I can. So I do get pissed when I find someone who recommends the blue wire mod.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1027264&postcount=10

Great find, great post. Looks like I learned something today...so I guess you shouldn't use the blue wire mod for a temporary solution.

 

[LA97GST]

ok i am about to order a LM-1 for 350 dollars brand new. I am thinking I might run about 11.4 afr. Is that safe? I do not have a dyno around here so I just want to not melt my internals.

 

[Wobble]

ive been running 11.4 for over a year, no probs..

at 11.1 my spark plugs are so black they look like they were pulled from somebody's butt.. at 11.8 they start getting a little white..

also 11.4 keeps me right around 850C (#1 runner tapped) sustained...

 

[Blk_99gst]

...so I guess you shouldn't use the blue wire mod for a temporary solution.

No you shouldn't. You shouldn't use the blue wire mod for a year, a month, or a day. It's not a solution at all, temporary or not. It's known and proven to change the voltage. Why would you use it even as a temporary solution if you know it's going to change the voltage.

Great find, great post. Looks like I learned something today...

Hopefully you did, but I doubt it. I don't care if I changed your mind or not or if you run the blue wire mod or not, I just wanted other's who read this thread not to do it. And if people read this thread, read my cut and paste article, and read the first hand post above, then I think a rational person would not do the blue wire mod.

 

[Blk_99gst]

ok i am about to order a LM-1 for 350 dollars brand new. I am thinking I might run about 11.4 afr. Is that safe? I do not have a dyno around here so I just want to not melt my internals.

Did you get the rpm/inductive clamp and the input cable that the inductive clamp goes with? I HIGHLY recommend that. When you see dips in the a/f ratio, you really need to know at what rpm they are at so you can adjust the safc accordingly. I also got the o2 sensor tailpipe clamp for the sensor. Yes it's expensive, but it lets you put the sensor at the tailpipe; gases not as hot back there so the sensor will last longer. And it lets you take attach it to other people's cars. If you don't get the clamp for the back and put the o2 sensor into the exhaust system via a bung, then you have to have the wideband system running ALL the time, or you'll fry the sensor.

And you can't say I want to run an 11.4 a/f ratio. You have to consider so many things. If you read this post, you will see that kpt4321's car likes a 10.5:1 ratio. What ratio depends on what gas you are running. Piss cali 91 11.4 a/f ratio is different than east coast 94oct 11.4 a/f ratio.

I would say running between 11.0 and 11.5 is probably the desirable point for 93oct, just make sure your timing is still advancing and not getting pulled.

 

[Violater101]

Agreed. My car seems to like it abit rich as well..around 10.9 to 11.2'ish on pump. Reason being is as I try to advance the timing with a leaner A/F, the car begins to pull timing I'm running an FJO in the rear O2 location.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I use the techedge 2.0 WBO2. It uses the 27 dollar sensor readily available from VW dealers. If I kill the sensor with race gas or whatever, who cares. Cost me 300 all told shipped from australia. I didnt need the display though, since I log it in DSMlink. I think thats 100 bucks more. Nice little unit, works great for me. Cant even remember what life was like before it...