How to tune with wide band o2

[dnhieu]

i was just curious on how to tune with a wide band o2. i know im looking to get a number between 11.3-11.5 but how do i get to that number? am i looking for 11.3-11.5 all the way through a pull or just at redline? any help would be greatly appreaciated

thanks tuners

eclipse talon laser

 

[gsxtacy]

someone correct me if I am wrong, but.....A SAFC and a Datalogger would come to mind.

You need a way to adjust the amount of fuel you need, and you need a way to SEE the timing the ECU is giving or taking away.

Once those items are present, Start off on low boost (under 18 psi).

Turn on your WideBand, you Datalogger should be plugged in and ready to log.

Get to third gear and hold it in third at around 2800-3000 rpm, then start your log and depress the accelerator to the floor and hold it. Once your RPM gets to 6500-6800 let off completely, and stop your log.

Now I am not familiar with Wideband functions, but I would guess that somehow you can reply what the Wideband just did, and take a look at your logger.

Note 3000 rpm timing, and o2.
Not 3500 rpm timing, and o2.
and so on and so forth through 6800.

Make adjustments as necessary.

I have never used a wideband, but thats how I would do it.

gsxtacy

 

[awdwhip]

first of all if your afr is displayed then what ever tunning tool you are using, use it to get that 11.3-11.5. do 2nd gear and 3rd gear pulls.

 

[98spydert]

You're looking for a target AFR from the moment you hit full boost under WOT to redline. It shouldn't wander too much.

For tuning, you'll look at the AFR you have and the AFR you want at a certain point and do the math. There is about a 2% difference between 11.1 and 113 so to get from one to the other you would simply add or subtract 2% via whatever fuel-tuning device you are using. Or if you don't want to do the math, just add or subtract 1% or 2% at a time until you get where you want.

Example, at 4000 rpm your logged AFR is only 10.1 and you want 11.2. There's is about a 10% difference. (I wouldn't make that large of a change if you're tuning on pump gas. baby steps) Make your change at that point and move on to the next in line and repeat the above.

You will run into problems with a piggyback controller and tuning for a target AFR though, hopefully you are using DSMLink or better. 20psi+ works for people on pump gas but if you're trying to achieve 20psi and a fairly lean AFR, you will run into knock without the ability to control timing. You have the choice of lowering boost or running a richer than desired AFR.

 

[TheDeer]

How I tuned my car, for driveability not WOT, was to get watch the A/F and tune my haltech as needed. Did normal driving, highway driving, town driving, etc... YOu get the idea.

As for WOT, you are better off on a dyno, and safer. It also helps if you can have more than one person doing it, sometime you don't have that option so be careful.

My tune is 25psi on pump, BTW.

 

[98spydert]

How I tuned my car, for driveability not WOT, was to get watch the A/F and tune my haltech as needed. Did normal driving, highway driving, town driving, etc... YOu get the idea.

As for WOT, you are better off on a dyno, and safer. It also helps if you can have more than one person doing it, sometime you don't have that option so be careful.

My tune is 25psi on pump, BTW.

He's using a MAFT according to his profile, not a haltech. The only luck he'll have is tuning low and mid by trims and WOT by AFR.

 

[dnhieu]

i am fully aware on how to tune with a logger. the way i like to do it is to get all fuel trims at 100 and 0 knock. from their i can get a good 3rd gear pull without spiting and sputtering and lean and turn the boost up till i see knock. what i was curious on was when do i want to see the 11.3-11.5. from what my buddie tells me the guage isnt really worth a damn to actually tune off but is good to monitor your engine if something isnt right. i guess you can say im curious in all the things that i would normally have to teach myself like reading the graphs for example.

also thanks for the replys. i was going to get the wide band no matter what and didnt see any threads on how to use one on this sight.

eclipse talon laser

 

[1990EclipseGSX]

You don't necessarily want to tune for a "target" AFR. Also, it is hard to do any meaningful AFR logging unless you have the capability to simultaneously log RPM's. You want to pay attention to the AFR from the time you start building boost until redline.

When I tune, I use my wideband more for safety, and tune for knock and timing. As a general rule, you really don't want to go any leaner than 12.5:1 on pump gas.
I do a pull and log RPM and AFR on my LM-1; and knock, timing, and RPM on my pocket logger. I compare my logs, add fuel wherever my AFR is overly lean or whre I knock, and then I do another pull. If I have 0 knock count, and my AFR is nice and rich, I go ahead and turn up the boost a little, do a pull, and see the results. I am installing my DSMLink this weekend with a GM MAP, so I will be able to log knock, AFR, boost, timing, and RPM all in one log, which will make tuning infinitely easier.

You aren't necessarily going to get the best tune by shooting for an AFR of 11.1-11.3 through your entire powerband. You could probably be a bit leaner until you reach full boost without knocking. Also, if you aren't running a LOT of boost, 11.1:1 is pretty damn rich. In my opinion, you will end up with a much better tune if you just use your wideband for refrence and safety, and focus on tuning for zero knock.
Chris

 

[98spydert]

You don't necessarily want to tune for a "target" AFR. Also, it is hard to do any meaningful AFR logging unless you have the capability to simultaneously log RPM's. You want to pay attention to the AFR from the time you start building boost until redline.

And why wouldn't you want to tune for a target AFR? Any WB02 worth buying these days has logging capabilities and the only reason to buy one that doesn't is if you have DSMLink or a standalone that can log the 0-5v output that it better have. For a beginner that knows nothing about tuning with a WB02, they can focus on just WOT full boost conditions. There's no reason to try and fully tune a car all at once while just learning.

When I tune, I use my wideband more for safety, and tune for knock and timing. As a general rule, you really don't want to go any leaner than 12.5:1 on pump gas.
I do a pull and log RPM and AFR on my LM-1; and knock, timing, and RPM on my pocket logger. I compare my logs, add fuel wherever my AFR is overly lean or whre I knock, and then I do another pull. If I have 0 knock count, and my AFR is nice and rich, I go ahead and turn up the boost a little, do a pull, and see the results. I am installing my DSMLink this weekend with a GM MAP, so I will be able to log knock, AFR, boost, timing, and RPM all in one log, which will make tuning infinitely easier.

12.2:1 is mean best torque and the perfect target for knock limited engines in my opinon. Rich enough to control knock if you run near stock timing maps and fairly conservative boost. Using excessive fuel to controll knock while trying to run too much boost or too much timing on pump gas leads to a pretty numbers to post on the internet and less power than you could be making.

You aren't necessarily going to get the best tune by shooting for an AFR of 11.1-11.3 through your entire powerband. You could probably be a bit leaner until you reach full boost without knocking. Also, if you aren't running a LOT of boost, 11.1:1 is pretty damn rich. In my opinion, you will end up with a much better tune if you just use your wideband for refrence and safety, and focus on tuning for zero knock.
Chris

Zero knock doesnt make power, the right combination of AFR and timing does. Sure zero knock will keep your engine nice and safe but running a overly rich AFR or too little timing just to keep your boost gauge pegged where you want it will, like I said before, return piss poor output.

I wish people would focus more on AFR and timing numbers and learn what to do with them rather than running 20+psi on pump gas, timing as high as they can get it since that's what everyone else does, and the leanest (pig rich) AFR they can get away with so their knock count stays at zero and their boost gauge stays at an impressive number.

Chris, when you get DSMLink, check out the DSMLink forums. You'll learn a lot more about tuning there than you ever will on tuners.

 

[1990EclipseGSX]

And why wouldn't you want to tune for a target AFR? Any WB02 worth buying these days has logging capabilities and the only reason to buy one that doesn't is if you have DSMLink or a standalone that can log the 0-5v output that it better have. For a beginner that knows nothing about tuning with a WB02, they can focus on just WOT full boost conditions. There's no reason to try and fully tune a car all at once while just learning.


12.2:1 is mean best torque and the perfect target for knock limited engines in my opinon. Rich enough to control knock if you run near stock timing maps and fairly conservative boost. Using excessive fuel to controll knock while trying to run too much boost or too much timing on pump gas leads to a pretty numbers to post on the internet and less power than you could be making.


Zero knock doesnt make power, the right combination of AFR and timing does. Sure zero knock will keep your engine nice and safe but running a overly rich AFR or too little timing just to keep your boost gauge pegged where you want it will, like I said before, return piss poor output.

I wish people would focus more on AFR and timing numbers and learn what to do with them rather than running 20+psi on pump gas, timing as high as they can get it since that's what everyone else does, and the leanest (pig rich) AFR they can get away with so their knock count stays at zero and their boost gauge stays at an impressive number.

Chris, when you get DSMLink, check out the DSMLink forums. You'll learn a lot more about tuning there than you ever will on tuners.

I have to disagree with you on some things. Knock is bad, PERIOD, on a tune for daily driving. If you want to lose your new engine at 50K, then by all means ignore your knock, lean it out, turn up the boost, and get that faster tune with more boost while knocking. However, I just spent $7,000 rebuilding my block, so this is not the answer for me.

You will get the safest tune with no knock.
I never said anything about trying to run 20+ psi on pump gas. Right now I am running 18 psi on the stock timing maps, zero knock, and AFR stays around 12.1:1 and never goes beyond 12.6:1. Currenly, I don't think I could get any faster on pump withough the DSMLink. Ny timing is in the high teens, I experience no knock, and my AFR is in the "power zone".

I DO NOT tune for "good looking tunes on paper." I tune for whatever gets me through third gear the fastest with zero knock, and I think this is the safest way to go about things.

Also, please exlain to me how tuning for a target AFR of 11.1:1 is going to result in a better tune.

However I do have to agree with you on one thing, the DSMLink forums are far more educational than tuners.

Chris

 

[98spydert]

You seem to have misunderstood a few things. Tune for zero knock but sacrifice something besides AFR to get there. I also never said anything about 11.1 being ideal, I specifically said 12.2:1 or .8 lambda is MBT and a good target AFR.

You're not using stock timing maps if you're in the high teens. Stock 2G timing maps peak at 16 degrees, you'll realize this when you install DSMLink.

Your tune seems to be fine but your advice of tuning by knock and timing and ignoring AFR is skewed. Even though this method returned a good AFR for you, it won't for most people who, like I said, choose to run 20+ psi just because everyone else does and end up with high timing, no knock, 20psi and a 9:1 AFR.

 

[1990EclipseGSX]

You seem to have misunderstood a few things. Tune for zero knock but sacrifice something besides AFR to get there. I also never said anything about 11.1 being ideal, I specifically said 12.2:1 or .8 lambda is MBT and a good target AFR.

You're not using stock timing maps if you're in the high teens. Stock 2G timing maps peak at 16 degrees, you'll realize this when you install DSMLink.

Your tune seems to be fine but your advice of tuning by knock and timing and ignoring AFR is skewed. Even though this method returned a good AFR for you, it won't for most people who, like I said, choose to run 20+ psi just because everyone else does and end up with high timing, no knock, 20psi and a 9:1 AFR.

I drive a 1990 GSX, not a 2G, so my timing maps are indeed stock.

I am not saying ignore AFR, but I am saying that you don't want to tune for a "target" AFR... You should make sure your AFR stays below 12.5:1, and tune for whatever gets you through 3rd the fastest with no knock. I said to use the wideband more for refrence. If you are running 20+ psi but have an AFR of 9:1, you probably need to lean out. If you take out fuel and you are still really rich but knocking, that means you need to turn down the boost and retune.

From what I understand, having control of timing can help you run more boost on pump fuel without knocking and ending up with an AFR of 9:1. This is why I am upgrading to the DSMLink. If the original posters profile is up to date, he also has no control over timing, which means running tons of boost on pump fuel is probably not going to result in the best tune.

You are saying that a lot of people end up running 25 psi @ 10:1 AFR's, and they could be a lot faster if they tuned for less boost and a leaner AFR. I definitely agree with you here.

Widebands are awesome because they tell you if you are overly lean or rich, but you shoulddn't just tune for a target AFR, as there are other important factors to pay attention to while tuning.

 

[98spydert]

Widebands are awesome because they tell you if you are overly lean or rich, but you shoulddn't just tune for a target AFR, as there are other important factors to pay attention to while tuning.

Any decent tuning book will say different. There're always variables and there're always exceptions but sounds to me like you wasted your money on the WB02. An EGT will give you all the warning you need for your method of tuning. No need to go back and fourth anymore. Happy tuning.

 

[espinelli]

Ever since WBs became available, EGT gauges are no longer a requirement.

There are so many tuning methodologies.

Personally I prefer to run as much boost as I can until I start seeing knock, then turn down boost a touch and tweak fuel trims and timing. Some people like to run lots of timing advance, others run very little timing.

Currently I'm running about 22psi, 19-20*, 12.1-12.4 AFRs all on pump gas.

I think people don't realize what may work for them may not always work for others. It also depends on the mods. I'm sure tuning a 16G will be different when tuning a setup running a T67. Bottom line, find what works best for you and your setup and stick with it.

 

[1990EclipseGSX]

Any decent tuning book will say different. There're always variables and there're always exceptions but sounds to me like you wasted your money on the WB02. An EGT will give you all the warning you need for your method of tuning. No need to go back and fourth anymore. Happy tuning.

, yes, I wasted my money on a WBO2. An EGT WILL NOT tell me what I need to know for my kind of tuning. EGT's mean nothing. This was just a stupid statement, and you know it. You go ahead and tune for your target AFR there buddy. I will continue to tune using my method.

Chris

 

[1990EclipseGSX]

Oh, and here is a response from kpt4321 when I asked him about WBO2 tuning a year or so ago.

A/F ratio is something you refer to when tuning other parameters, as opposed to something you tune for, whenever you are running pump gas. This is generally because when you tune on pump gas, you will start to knock long before your A/F ratio is too lean.

A car will make maximum power around 12.6:1. Since you're on pump gas, you probably are going to end up in the 11.5-11.9:1 area, but I can't guarantee that.

A lot of this depends on how efficient your setup is too.

If everything else looks good, ignore the EGT.

...Kyle T.

 

[autronicDSM]

If you really want to tune it right, get on a dyno like a Dynapack that can hold rpm constant and tune for maximum torque every, let's say, 1000rpm under WOT. You're going to have to play with both timing and AFR to see what effect it has.

 

[drivemusicnow]

first of all, when tuning, you want as MUCH data as possible. every extra thing you can log and or watch while tuning makes it that much easier to get more power, and not blow shit up.

Personally, I'm using a wideband and egt, both loggable with everything else. This along with adding some thermocouples should give me the most amount of data possible. I'll tune with that until I get to where i want to be... minimal knock, with moderate timing and good A/F... boost is not something you "tune to" its something you change in order to get timing, A/F, and knock to acceptable values.

And because i'm smart.. i'll tune it to the best of my abilities.. then drive on over to AMS, hand over the keys, and tell them to fix it (IMO an hour or so of labor charges for their expertise is VERY cheap)

 

[dnhieu]

instead of everyone going back and forth with each other on which is the better tuning metod. lets change the subject to how do YOU tune off your wide band o2 haha

eclipse talon laser

 

[Ams2gJim]

For a good and safe tune on pump gas stay around 11:8. On 100 octane stay around 12.1 and on 110 or C16 stay close to 12:3-12:5.

Jim

 

[1990EclipseGSX]

And because i'm smart.. i'll tune it to the best of my abilities.. then drive on over to AMS, hand over the keys, and tell them to fix it (IMO an hour or so of labor charges for their expertise is VERY cheap)

Now this is the way to tune

If only I lived within driving distance of a shop like AMS..........

 

[dnhieu]

so let me get this straight. while tuning at full throttle im just basically just trying to get my afr as low as possible without getting knock? or the best afr that my car likes? as the afr gets smaller on a graph at wot do i just look at the numbers from when my boost starts and when i reach full boost? sorry dumb questions im definetly a newbe when it comes to tuning but im trying really hard to understand how the ecu works and how to find that hidden power that the 4g63t creates

eclipse talon laser