Which setup will make more power or yeild better times?

[damax03]

All my previous mods are in my sig.

2 Choices: #1 1. 750cc Injectors
2. EVO 3 16G Turbo
3. HKS 264/272 Combo

#2 1. 750cc Injectors
2. SBR GT-10
3. NO CAMS


I think they will spool relatively the same and I know the GT-10 has more potential but without the cams will I be able to take advantage of it?

Those are really the only two options that I am considering because of money constraints, and my plans for the car. The #1 setup will cost a little less so that has a big plus from the get go. All opinions or suggestions are welcome. Thanks in advance.

 

[STECARS]

1. I dont think you need 750 's for the 16g. so save some money there
2. IMHO The evo 16g cant compare to the power of the sbr gt-10 even if you use cams with the 16g and no cams with the sbr gt.
In conclusion the #1 setup is inferior to the #2 setup even if you use stocks cams with the gt-10.

 

[PieTSI]

Definately #2

But it will however be less reliable and ball bearing turbos are more prone to failure than conventional ones.

You also have to figure in a fmic if you ever want to turn the boost up at all.

 

[nanokpsi]

This is a tough call. I am inclined to say number one. With my pte 50 trim at 20 psi and no cams I was flowing about 34-35 lb/min. I am sure a evo 16 g with cams can flow a lil more than that. With cams I now see about 40 lb/min at the same psi. You you really need cams to take advantage of the bigger turbos.

 

[kpt4321]

1. I dont think you need 750 's for the 16g. so save some money there

650's, 750's, 850's, and 950's are all generally the same price, so it's not a big deal.

Second of all, you're saying that he doesn't need the 750's for the 16g, but then you went on to tell him not to get the 16g? If you don't want him to get it, why are you using it to size the injectors?

2. IMHO The evo 16g cant compare to the power of the sbr gt-10 even if you use cams with the 16g and no cams with the sbr gt.

Where are you getting this information?

Turbo vs. turbo, the GT10 can probably flow *slightly* more than the EvoIII16g. However, I have heard of the Evo3 flowing over 40 lb/min, which is getting damned close to what the GT-10 can do.

However, the addition of cams allows you to flow a solid several lb/min more, with the same setup. That gives the EvoIII 16g a HUGE advantage.

In conclusion the #1 setup is inferior to the #2 setup even if you use stocks cams with the gt-10.

I disagree.

If you're going to spend the money on a good ball bearing turbo, do two things:

1. Buy the proper supporting mods, which includes cams.

2. Don't buy a mediocre sized turbo. Is it worth twice the cost if it's capable of 10-30 horsepower more when you max out the setups? I sure think not.

 

[heavyD]

I would take choice #1. Even though it may be 20 - 30 less HP on the dyno, if you ever want to get really serious, you already have the cams and injectors in place. #1 is probably a better street setup also due to the better spool up of the EVO III.

 

[STECARS]

650's, 750's, 850's, and 950's are all generally the same price, so it's not a big deal.

Second of all, you're saying that he doesn't need the 750's for the 16g, but then you went on to tell him not to get the 16g? If you don't want him to get it, why are you using it to size the injectors?


IMHO OPINION


Where are you getting this information? IMHO

Turbo vs. turbo, the GT10 can probably flow *slightly* more than the EvoIII16g. However, I have heard of the Evo3 flowing over 40 lb/min, which is getting damned close to what the GT-10 can do.

However, the addition of cams allows you to flow a solid several lb/min more, with the same setup. That gives the EvoIII 16g a HUGE advantage.



I disagree.

If you're going to spend the money on a good ball bearing turbo, do two things:

1. Buy the proper supporting mods, which includes cams.

2. Don't buy a mediocre sized turbo. Is it worth twice the cost if it's capable of 10-30 horsepower more when you max out the setups? I sure think not.

IMHO

 

[STECARS]

This is a tough call. I am inclined to say number one. With my pte 50 trim at 20 psi and no cams I was flowing about 34-35 lb/min. I am sure a evo 16 g with cams can flow a lil more than that. With cams I now see about 40 lb/min at the same psi. You you really need cams to take advantage of the bigger turbos.

yeah , but you cant turn your 16g upto 25+ psi .

 

[STECARS]

Definately #2

But it will however be less reliable and ball bearing turbos are more prone to failure than conventional ones.

You also have to figure in a fmic if you ever want to turn the boost up at all.

exactly

 

[damax03]

Alright well I have read some of the posts, and first of all this is a daily driven car (20 miles from home to work then 20 miles from work to school then 20 miles from school to home) 5 days a week. Based on that driveablility is very importand but durability is just as important. I noticed a few people mention the need of a FMIC, well I have one and quite a large and efficient one at that (SBR 24" x 12" x 3.5"). Also for injectors they all cost relatively the same and since I run DSM Link getting large injectors to act normally isnt the trouble that it can be with just an AFC, so I will probably go with larger injectors just to be on the safe side and keep injector duty cycles as low as possible.

This will probably be the extent of my power mods I do to this car short of an inevitable rebuild of engine and trans in the future. I appreciate all the responses and I hope some of my reply will help guide this thread in the right direction.

 

[nanokpsi]

yeah , but you cant turn your 16g upto 25+ psi .

Sure you can. You jsut need race gas to do so. you will be able to run a couple more psi maybe with the gt 10 on pump, but you will need to to get the same kind of flow. My 50 trim w/o cams was flowing 33-35 lb/min at 20 psi. An evo 16g with cams should be flowing more than that. With cams I am flowing 38-40 lb/min at 20 psi. The only problem is that the evo 16 will not have a lot left in it mods wise for the future. If these mods will be the extent of your mods then just get the #1.

 

[kpt4321]

yeah , but you cant turn your 16g upto 25+ psi .

Do you understand that the GT-10 is barely bigger than the EvoIII16g? We're not talking about a 50 trim or a 20g here, the GT-10 is NOT THAT BIG!

It's only marginally bigger than the EIII16g.

Just because it has a fancy name with "GT" in it, does not make it worth TWICE THE PRICE for like 10% more flow capability.

 

[STECARS]

Do you understand that the GT-10 is barely bigger than the EvoIII16g? We're not talking about a 50 trim or a 20g here, the GT-10 is NOT THAT BIG!

It's only marginally bigger than the EIII16g.

Just because it has a fancy name with "GT" in it, does not make it worth TWICE THE PRICE for like 10% more flow capability.

I just looked up the gt-10 which i neglected to do aerlier , so "i'm sorry". i thought it was like a 50 trim.
With that said, , he is running dsmlink , 750's and a big ass fmic, I think that a 5o trim would probably be in his best intrest then.
Also a 16g at 25 psi requiring race gas is exactly that best choice to go with for a street car thats daily driven. He is probable gonna run 93 octane were the 50 trim with do way better than the e16g or the gt-10 without cams, Also he can minimize cost by getting a pte bolton internally gated.
also i dont see option #1 being cheaper than option #2 . Cams go about $500 and an e16g costs about $500, and the gt-10 costs $560. So i would skip the cams for now until the next timing belt change and get the pte ready to bolt-on for $899 with the 750's.
so
#1 750's , e16g, cams
$375 + 500 + 500 = $1375

#2 750's , gt-10
$375 + 569 = $944

#3 750'S , PTE 50 TRIM,
$375 + 899 = $1275.

 

[damax03]

I thought about the 50 trim but it doesn't spool quick enough for my needs. So it is between the GT-10 and the EVO 3 16G for sure. I am not sure where you saw the gt-10 for $560, because on the SBR website they list it for 1200 + 100 for internal gate + 150 for the oil feed line with inline filter which is necessary for the warranty. So you are looking at:

A: 560 (turbo) + 75 (oil line for warranty) + 375 (injectors) + 500 (cams) = $1510

B: 1200 (turbo) + 150 oil line for warranty) + 100 (internal gate) + 375 (injectors)= $1825

The difference comes out to $315 more for the ball bearing route, so with that said what are your opinions now?

 

[nanokpsi]

I just looked up the gt-10 which i neglected to do aerlier , so "i'm sorry". i thought it was like a 50 trim.
With that said, , he is running dsmlink , 750's and a big ass fmic, I think that a 5o trim would probably be in his best intrest then.
Also a 16g at 25 psi requiring race gas is exactly that best choice to go with for a street car thats daily driven. He is probable gonna run 93 octane were the 50 trim with do way better than the e16g or the gt-10 without cams, Also he can minimize cost by getting a pte bolton internally gated.
also i dont see option #1 being cheaper than option #2 . Cams go about $500 and an e16g costs about $500, and the gt-10 costs $560. So i would skip the cams for now until the next timing belt change and get the pte ready to bolt-on for $899 with the 750's.
so
#1 750's , e16g, cams
$375 + 500 + 500 = $1375

#2 750's , gt-10
$375 + 569 = $944

#3 750'S , PTE 50 TRIM,
$375 + 899 = $1275.

What ever
the gt 10 is like 1200. Like I said in my above post about airflow fomr the turbos....you could run more boost wiyth a 50 trim, but the e3 would still probably flow more with cams. just at/near it's maximimum

 

[STECARS]

I thought about the 50 trim but it doesn't spool quick enough for my needs. So it is between the GT-10 and the EVO 3 16G for sure. I am not sure where you saw the gt-10 for $560, because on the SBR website they list it for 1200 + 100 for internal gate + 150 for the oil feed line with inline filter which is necessary for the warranty. So you are looking at:

A: 560 (turbo) + 75 (oil line for warranty) + 375 (injectors) + 500 (cams) = $1510

B: 1200 (turbo) + 150 oil line for warranty) + 100 (internal gate) + 375 (injectors)= $1825

The difference comes out to $315 more for the ball bearing route, so with that said what are your opinions now?

My mistake , sorry.

 

[kpt4321]

I was talking about the price difference between the two turbos. The GT-10 is twice as much as the EvoIII, but it only flows a tiny bit more maximum.

 

[STECARS]

What ever
the gt 10 is like 1200. Like I said in my above post about airflow fomr the turbos....you could run more boost wiyth a 50 trim, but the e3 would still probably flow more with cams. just at/near it's maximimum

Dont contradict your self , cams give 20-30 hp. The 50 trim is better and will do more than e16g with cams.
reread your post,

you say that the e16g with cams will flow more than thje 5o trim at/near it's maximum. But the 50 trim still has plenty boost left in it.

 

[nanokpsi]

Dont contradict your self , cams give 20-30 hp. The 50 trim is better and will do more than e16g with cams.
reread your post,

you say that the e16g with cams will flow more than thje 5o trim at/near it's maximum. But the 50 trim still has plenty boost left in it.

I don't think I am contradicting myself at all. The evo 16g with cams will flow more at the same psi. A 50 trim would have more potential power but would need to really crank up the boost. The Gt10 will have far less potential than a 50 trim anyways. There is a member on the link forums that is running a 3052 on a 2g w/o cams. At 28 psi he sees 41 lb/min. An evo3 at 21-22 psi with cams will be flowing about that much. Most people aren't comfortable running 28 psi where as a lot of people run 20-23 psi. Not to mention he said this would probably be the extent to his mods, which is why the evo3 fits in here. If it were me I would get a 50 trim and some cams.......wait, I did already

 

[STECARS]

If it were me I would get a 50 trim and some cams.......wait, I did already

Strongly agrree , and thats also what i did and thats why i'm recommending it. (50 trim + cams and be done with it)

 

[STECARS]

A 50 trim would have more potential power but would need to really crank up the boost. The Gt10 will have far less potential than a 50 trim anyways.

and the 50 trim is cheaper and some are spooling up anywhere from 3400 + rpms.


There is a member on the link forums that is running a 3052 on a 2g w/o cams. At 28 psi he sees 41 lb/min. An evo3 at 21-22 psi with cams will be flowing about that much.

I'm having a very hard time absorbing that. Everyones car is different. Different mods, tweaks, tunning , etc........

 

[nanokpsi]

I'm having a very hard time absorbing that. Everyones car is different. Different mods, tweaks, tunning , etc........

If you are talking about the spool commment, that one isn't mine . Mine spools later than that so I would't toss that around. For the airflow comment, The car I was talking about is a stock sevenbolt longblock, stock cams. FMIC, Fp3052 (maybe 3055-have to look again) and 28 psi. Airflow will be pretty comporable between cars at similar altitudes. That airflow jives with me seeing 33-35 lb/min at 20 psi w/o my cams. (depending on intake temps). Tuniung will bot have much of an impact on airflow at all. The we are talking about raun 115 in the 1/4 which is about right for that amount of airflow. I always push people towars the pte 50 trim if they are i the market. I love mine.

 

[niterydr]

I personally like the evo III 16g route. Buy supporting mods first, so many people out there are running gigantic turbos with nothing to back them up.
We just dyno'd a customers car on an AWD mustang dynometer and made 311whp and 329wheel lb ft/torque. 27psi spike, 23psi at redline, and it made 308whp, 315ft lbs on 22psi. All runs were on 1/8 tank of 92 octane and 4 gallons of 100 octane unleaded mixed in, so essentially 95 octane? pretty darn close to pump gas. A/f's were around 11.5:1.
mods:
1992 talon tsi awd, 6/4 combo.
our fmic kit w/ CAI
our head porting
STOCK CAMS
stock 171k bottom end.
650's, maf-t, 255hp, s-afc II, eprom chip ecu burned for 700's, act 2600, fidanza flywheel, and 3" exhaust.
Not to bad, and the car spools and pulls extremely hard.
The point is, start with the supporting mods, and go on from there, always keep a end goal of 'how much power' or 'which turbo' you want in sight, but work towards it, don't just start at it.
Just my $.02.
He'll be at the track this weekend, I wish him the best of luck, he is still getting to know driving awd cars, but I think he'll do okay.

 

[flinguist]

If you are talking about the spool commment, that one isn't mine . Mine spools later than that so I would't toss that around. For the airflow comment, The car I was talking about is a stock sevenbolt longblock, stock cams. FMIC, Fp3052 (maybe 3055-have to look again) and 28 psi. Airflow will be pretty comporable between cars at similar altitudes. That airflow jives with me seeing 33-35 lb/min at 20 psi w/o my cams. (depending on intake temps). Tuniung will bot have much of an impact on airflow at all. The we are talking about raun 115 in the 1/4 which is about right for that amount of airflow. I always push people towars the pte 50 trim if they are i the market. I love mine.

Isn't there a problem running 28 psi w/ stock head bolts? I've heard they can stretch at that kind of boost, and headgaskets will blow.