where to get methanol???

[91-gsx]

where do you guys running alcohol injection get your methanol from? i live in the San Jose area in California. if you know of any place that mails it out or takes orders please help.
thanks

 

[hks-gst]

I dont know if they have this in cali. windshield washer fluied the one for weather that is bellow -20 has the perfect mix of methonal in it an it is safe for ## motor.

 

[kicker91laser]

I dont know if they have this in cali. windshield washer fluied the one for weather that is bellow -20 has the perfect mix of methonal in it an it is safe for ## motor.

Just be shure and not use the "bug formulas" they contain soaps that the wi system and you engine may not like. Your best bet is to get the plain old blue cheap stuff

 

[99gst_racer]

I'm lucky enough to have a Torco filling station near me. They charge me $2.25/gal for my methanol.

Try hardware stores or places like Lowes or Home Depot. It might be a little on the expensive side, but I do believe they sell methanol.

 

[JohnTSI]

Most of the larger speed shops that sell race fuel sell methonal as well.

 

[gixrman]

I'm lucky enough to have a Torco filling station near me. They charge me $2.25/gal for my methanol.

Try hardware stores or places like Lowes or Home Depot. It might be a little on the expensive side, but I do believe they sell methanol.

Yep thats were I get mine sold as S-L-X Denatured alcohol not to expensive $11.97 for a 1gallon can from HD.

 

[Turbocharged]

Lets clarify some things:

Specific heat:
Methanol = 0.60 Btu/lb°F
Ethanol = 0.57 Btu/lb°F
Water = 1 Btu/lbm°F
Gasoline = 0.48 Btu/lb°F

Octane (R+M/2):
Methanol = 100
Ethanol =100
Water = 0
Gasoline = 86 - 94

So what does this mean? You want to inject something that has a high specific heat. Specific heat is a measure of how much energy is required to change a materials temperature. In other words, the higher the specific heat, the more energy a material can absorb without considerably changing temperature. The reason for injection is to reduce knock by absorbing heat. Gasoline, with a low specific, cannot absorb much heat by itself. So, you need to replace a small amount a gasoline (that isnt being combusted anyways because all motors opperate richer than stoicheometric ratios) with something with a higher specific heat. Adding methanol and ethanol do very little to increase the specific heat of the intake charge.

Here is the common misconception. People think that because methanol and ethanol have higher octanes, they are better for injection. This is not true. Take this case for example. Typical alcohol to fuel ratio in injection systems is 15%. Lets assume we are running 92 octane gasonline. Then, the octane of the fuel charge with the alcohol injection is given by:

Octane = (.85*92) + (.15*100) = 93.2

So, you effectively increase your octane by 1.2 (negligible) but do nearly nothing to increase the heat absorption.

If you are looking to decrease knock and increase timing (lower temeratures = less preignition = less knock = more timing) then water injection is the way to go. I will be running distilled water injection (.99 $/gal) once my 2.4 is installed. I have a degree in chemical engineering so this is right up my alley...

 

[gixrman]

Thats fine but some don't run straight meth, I for one run a 70/30 mix and have tried straight water, 50/50, 80/20 blah blah blah.
And for my motor this seems to run the best. It all depends on your setup. All I know is trying out different setups(mixs) is the best way to go.

 

[JohnTSI]

Several people are running low 10s on straight meth and 93 octane at 35psi, go try doing that with water. Also calling meth 100 octane though that is how it is listed is not like 100 octane gasoline, if it where guys like Shep wouldn't be running over 45psi on 100 octane.

 

[92redman]

Lets clarify some things:

Specific heat:
Methanol = 0.60 Btu/lb°F
Ethanol = 0.57 Btu/lb°F
Water = 1 Btu/lbm°F
Gasoline = 0.48 Btu/lb°F

Octane (R+M/2):
Methanol = 100
Ethanol =100
Water = 0
Gasoline = 86 - 94

So what does this mean? You want to inject something that has a high specific heat. Specific heat is a measure of how much energy is required to change a materials temperature. In other words, the higher the specific heat, the more energy a material can absorb without considerably changing temperature. The reason for injection is to reduce knock by absorbing heat. Gasoline, with a low specific, cannot absorb much heat by itself. So, you need to replace a small amount a gasoline (that isnt being combusted anyways because all motors opperate richer than stoicheometric ratios) with something with a higher specific heat. Adding methanol and ethanol do very little to increase the specific heat of the intake charge.

Here is the common misconception. People think that because methanol and ethanol have higher octanes, they are better for injection. This is not true. Take this case for example. Typical alcohol to fuel ratio in injection systems is 15%. Lets assume we are running 92 octane gasonline. Then, the octane of the fuel charge with the alcohol injection is given by:

Octane = (.85*92) + (.15*100) = 93.2

So, you effectively increase your octane by 1.2 (negligible) but do nearly nothing to increase the heat absorption.

If you are looking to decrease knock and increase timing (lower temeratures = less preignition = less knock = more timing) then water injection is the way to go. I will be running distilled water injection (.99 $/gal) once my 2.4 is installed. I have a degree in chemical engineering so this is right up my alley...

You are forgetting about the latent heat of evaporation, the whole reason for using methanol. The cooling properties that methanol has is why you don't need to run an intercooler. Methanol absorbs around 470 BTU/lb as it evaporates, where as gasoline is only about 130 BTU/lb. It also happens that methanol boils at around 150degF.

 

[TS82]

For what it's worth, HEET gas line antifreeze is methyl alcohol (methanol). It's pretty cheap here in ND, especially in the spring (when nobody wants it anymore). Just make sure you buy the yellow bottle, the red one contains isopropyl alcohol. It's cheep, but good luck finding it in CA!

 

[Turbocharged]

You are forgetting about the latent heat of evaporation, the whole reason for using methanol. The cooling properties that methanol has is why you don't need to run an intercooler. Methanol absorbs around 470 BTU/lb as it evaporates, where as gasoline is only about 130 BTU/lb. It also happens that methanol boils at around 150degF.

You are absolutely right. But you are forgetting that latent heats are a consequence of specific heats and intramolecular interactions (affects boiling point - water boils at 212 F). The latent heat of vaporization for water (with higher specific heat and extensive H-bonding) is 970 btu/lb which is higher than methanol and gasoline. There is a reason that engineers used WATER injection on WWII planes and not alcohols (alcohols are volatile and have lower Cp).

Methanol is also highly corrosive to aluminum and iron, especially at high temperatures. I dont think that the amount of methanol that you guys are injecting is dangerous to your motor but just a little FYI.

I know a lot of GNX guys swear by a 1:1 mixute but if you ask them why, they will all tell you that "its been proven to work". So which component in the mixture is really making the difference, because there is no advantage to mixing two together. Nobody thinks outside the box anymore... Just because everyone on internet forums does something a certain way doesnt make it the best way.

Im not trying to flame anyone here, Im just trying to get some information out there (too much misinformation on the internet).

The idea of injection is to increase cooling capacity. When you inject methanol, you increase cooling slightly but you are effectively trading one fuel for another. If that is your objective, you might as well run toluene or xylene in your fuel tank (I wouldnt recommend methanol because it is too corrosive) and inject water for cooling capacity.

 

[Turbocharged]

For those of you that have not been persuaded, you may be able to find methanol in bulk at paint stores. Its a common ingredient in paint thinners and strippers so you may be able to find some fairly pure methanol... not to sure though. I get toluene for my fuel mixture at paint stores.

 

[JohnTSI]

There are products available to mix with Meth to help combat its corrosive properties. I highly reccomend people do thier own research and not pay attention to what they are told on the internet.

 

[Turbocharged]

There are products available to mix with Meth to help combat its corrosive properties. I highly reccomend people do thier own research and not pay attention to what they are told on the internet.

Agreed

 

[91-gsx]

in now way do i have my car ready for this just yet, but i have done a lot of reading on water and alcohol injection. now the facts are that if you were to get and injection kit, and lets say you were to use a 500cc injector, which is about as big as most come for normal usage, and lets say you used the calculator and are shooting for 20% of your fuel to come from injection. now the water will absorb much more heat if you inject 500cc of it into your intake as opposed to methanol. but here is the trick that i have found and is the "proven" part of this whole argument. you cannot usually inject much more then 500cc of water because it might cause adverse affects like a bad bog when it kicks in, now you can take fuel out to counter this only to a certain extent, but you could never replace fuel with water. now turbocharged has given us some very good info:
Lets clarify some things:

Specific heat:
Methanol = 0.60 Btu/lb°F
Ethanol = 0.57 Btu/lb°F
Water = 1 Btu/lbm°F
Gasoline = 0.48 Btu/lb°F

this helps explain what the people that are having such great success with just methanol, have known, or found out. now i do not know how to explain this using chemistry, because i am not an engineer, but after turbocharged reads this he might be able to explain this more scientifically, if he becomes a believer. . now it takes about twice the amount of methanol or ethanol to equal the same cooling effects of water, as shown in the above values. but what people do is actually inject three times as much methanol because all you have to do with methanol is lean out your fuel curve and you are running your car on about 20% alcohol. try doing the same with water and your car will probably flood with a 1500cc injector!!! what i have read is that for some reason methanol does not carry the same molecular weight as water does, meaning if you injected 500cc of water that would make up about 20% of the fuel, but if you injected 500cc of methanol it only counts for about 7% of the fuel, thus you can inject way more of it. this way you get a really high octane and you cool 2 times!!! as much as water. not many people know this, but i have done enough reading of why they do it, not just because it worked for him now it will work for me. there is a guy on here that is running 11.9 in the 1/4 with this info, on his full weight vr4 with stock injectors, maft, big16g, PUMP GAS!!!, and other basic stuff that almost everybody has like exhaust and stuff. now the idea behind his success with the stock injectors is that he has the maft purple wire hooked up to the methanol only injection kit and it takes out 30% fuel when the injection kit turns on at 10psi of boost. it is some crazy stuff and his is running stock internals on all of his cars. even his 11.2 second dsm!!!
he explains it in this thread, if you look under his name, it says he ran an 11.2 sec 1/4 in the thread.
enjoy and i am not an expert but this makes a lot of sense to me.
http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1617479&postcount=34
read the whole thread but i am just showing you who the main guy is.
later