weird spark issue

[Streetracer0442]

okay, my eclipse has been down for 2 months, thought it was an ecu problem. so heres what happend. car stalled at a stop sign wouldn't fire back up. tow it home. do alot of searching on here. 2mo later gave up take it to the mechanic. so he calls today and has no clue about whats wrong with the car. heres what he tells me, Cam and crank sensors are working, ecu is new all the ground wires and power wires are perfect, timing is perfect. belts are all good. relays are all good. from what he could see no internal engine damage. wires to the ecu all check out okay. but the coil is only sending spark to 2 cylinders. nothin from the other 2, replaced the coil pack with new one same thing.he says that there is a pin inside were the cams are and that sometimes it breaks off. which may be causing all this. so my question anyone else have any problems like this or have any suggestions about what it could be? seems kinda weird that only 2 cylinders get spark. i just want some sugestions before i drop 600 bucks to have the motor pulled and taken apart. sorry so long just tryin to give all the info and background i can. mods and all that are in my profile. thanks in advance for any help. i have done some searching but i only come across 4g63 motors havin this problem, and it always there cam or crank sensors.

 

[Blitzeclips]

Well, for your car to start you need feul, spark, and air. Since almost everything besides feul has been checked, that should be next on your list...

If the car isn't starting it cartainly sounds like a feul issue. If your pump went out, the car will not start. There's no feul to combust the spark.

Use a voltmeter and check the pump for power. It should be at or around (someone please correct if I'm wrong) 12 Volts of power. Now, if it reads 12 volts of power, then there is power, but the pump itself could be acting up. If the feul filter gets clogged, then the pump won't prime. Hence, not getting feul even if there is power. Yet having power to the pump and no delivery of feul is highly unlikely.

If you need an extra pump I have one around here somewhere. I pulled it out when I installed by high flow intank. PM me and I'll be more then happy to hook you up..

Good luck.

 

[4UH8ERS]

blitz it's FUEL



That still doesnt explain the coil only sending spark to 2 cylinders. That definately sounds like a cam or crank sensor. I don't care if your mechanic said they work it doesnt mean thier working properly. I would get a multimeter out and check them both.

 

[Blitzeclips]

If you replaced the coil already, then try replacing the plug wires and plugs altogether as well...

I think Paul has mentioned something about his wires shorting our due to his valve cover interrupting something...

Let me brainstorm and figure out what else this could be.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Pin where the cams are that might have broken off... I think he's talking about the CMPS magnet. If you remove the CMPS (it's that black sensor on the front driver's side corner of the cylinder head), you should be able to inspect the magnet for damage. It shouldn't take you more than 15-20 min. to do this.

 

[Streetracer0442]

the fuel pump is fine it kicks on and i have 12v back there but it has weak pressure, so probably a bad line, i put a new pump in and it still did the same thing. as for the spark the ecu is getting signals from both the cam and crank sensors, i also used the multimeter on them both and they checked out alright. the spark plugs and wires i changed about a month ago and yes they are hooked up right did it one at a time. the plugs still look good basic wear is all. the mechanic said that pin was inside my cams and he had to pull the motor out to get to it. guess i'll have to go take a look monday, sounds like he doesn't know what he's talkin about.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

the fuel pump is fine it kicks on and i have 12v back there but it has weak pressure, so probably a bad line...

Have you replaced the fuel filter?

the mechanic said that pin was inside my cams and he had to pull the motor out to get to it. guess i'll have to go take a look monday, sounds like he doesn't know what he's talkin about.

I know of no such pin, and I've had these heads taken completely apart on more than one occasion...

 

[Blitzeclips]

Don't assume it's a bad line just yet. Like I said earlier, it MAY be your filter if you see 12 volts but the car still won't start.

If I were you, I'd work from the cheapest items on the list first. Replace the feul filter and see what happens. If it's clogging then the pump won't deliver fuel.

 

[Streetracer0442]

blitz my car is not starting due to the lack of spark in 2 of my cylinders, thats whats causing it not to fire. (cant run a car on 2 cylinders) it's getting fuel just not what it should be. the filter on the pump was changed when i got the new one. and as for the inline filter i have no clue when it was changed, but i'll try that to solve my low pressure. i will definatley check that cam pin on monday. and post my findings, maybe i can get so numbers that he has gotten so far and what cylinders aren't sparking. but thanks to both of ya for the help so far saved me about 500 bucks. well until monday

 

[Streetracer0442]

okay here is the update for the guys followin this thread, i whent to see the mechanic today, and ask him a few questions and get a look at the car myself. the pin he was talking about is a dowel like post on the back of the cams, he said sometimes this dowel can make the cam angle inward even thought the timing is on at TDC. also the crank and cam sensors are not lining up right. their timing is off. and they scoped it while i was there, to show me. also it is the outside wires that are not sparking. the computer keeps grounding 1 and 4 i think thats the number for the outside. so i am bitting the bullet and having the motor pulled. and hopefully the problem is found. but i would like to hear what your guess would be so i know what to expect. thanks for all the help guys.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

I can't visualize what pin he could possibly talking about... maybe the indexing key that keeps the cam and cam gear in proper alignment?

In any case, I really don't see why you would need to pay to have the whole engine pulled. At the most, you would need to replace a camshaft (or just that "pin") and have the timing re-done.

Your symptoms sound like the tell-tale signs of off-timing.

 

[4UH8ERS]

It obviously is a timing issue then, and no you don't need to pull your motor to redo timing or to remove cams.

 

[Streetracer0442]

well he said the timming was right on, but the cam and crank timming are off so there making the computer ground the outside plugs. i didn't think there was a post/pin for the cams, but i told him if he pulls the motor and that wasn't the problem or doesn't help i won't pay for it. i did get a chance to check the timming when i was there and it was on at tdc. but he said that the cam could be angled funny and throw it off at another point due to a dowel inside the motor. but i am keeping a close eye on it cause it all seems fishy to me. i'll pass this info on to him. thanks guys.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

It's kind of hard to help diagnose your problems, because half of what you're saying doesn't really make sense.

The timing can't be "right on," while the crank/cam timing is off. I suspect you mean that the timing is on, but that one of the camshafts somehow became un-indexed to the cam gear.

In any case, like we've been saying, this is no reason to pull the engine.

I suggest you take your car to another mechanic and get a different opinion, then come back and post that opinion here.

 

[Streetracer0442]

yeah that might be the best thing to do. sorry it dont make sense thats just what i am being told. he says the timing is looking okay but the sensor timming is off. thats why he wants to pull the engine, to see if maybe one off the cams are messed up, and not being were it suppose to be, even though it is visualy linning up. it may not be mechanically linning up. well i will post some up dates once i get some new info, thanks for all the help and opinions.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

I understand what he wants to do, but what we're telling you is that it's not necessary. Any competent mechanic can inspect the camshafts and cam gears with the engine still in the car. He'll need to remove the timing belt, but there is no reason he should have to pull the whole engine.

 

[solo_one87]

sounds like the mechanic knows whats wrong but wants to make u pay 600 dollars for an easy fix....... mechanics are the biggest con artists!.......... i had the same problem with my car i changed all electrical.......checked air and fuel...... still no start....... after 1000 at my family mechanic i got out there and finally found out that my wiring had been melted to my exaughts and it was grounding itself out...... oh btw 200 for a Cam position sensor........and another 200 for another sensor..... which are both about 50 bucks....... mechanics will screw u every which way careful

 

[Streetracer0442]

yeah im going to go pick it up today. thanks once again.

 

[lilantwan]

did you find out whats wrong im not getting spark on 2-3 replaced wires and coils still nothing
2-3 are your insides 1-4 are the outsides now thing is my car run i guess on just the 2. a bit odd but it just has no horsepower.. let me know what you get outa this i sure need the help

Anthony

 

[Streetracer0442]

yeah i'll let ya know what fixes the problem. i am going to mess with the timing and all that. i have been lookin for an excuse to start building the motor so i probably replace the cams and timing belt. but i will post the solution for others that have this problem in the future

 

[SnoopySLR]

Wow, this is amazing. Your experiencing EVERYTHING my car is doing to the letter.

Is it coil 1 or coil 2 that isn't firing? On my car, coil 1 isn't firing at all. I've checked signal going to the coil, good. Signal coming from crank and cam sensors... all good. I've checked everything I can think of too, just like you. Please, let me know any information you get about this. I shall do the same.

As for a "dowel" pin on the cam... could he be talking about the pin that holds the cam gear inplace? don't know why a mechanic would say thats it... but who knows. Also, for everyone saying timing. This has been my biggest concern, and I can't find anyone who can verify what our ECU looks at when sending Coil signals. If timing was off, it would just change WHEN it fires, not how. If our cars quit sparking at the sign of mis-alligned timing, what would be the point of adjustable cam gears? That was a guess of mine though... but unlikely in my eyes.