water pump and oil pump bypass do it yourself methods

[pazsion]

I really want chain timing assembly..but that may be thousands of dollars away..and another motor build entirely..or i haven't found compatable parts from another car yet..i don't exactly have a test engine outside of my daily driver =c


So i'm thinking, how best can i have less wear on my timeing belt, while freeing up horsepower etc..

having an electric pump system would take away from parasitic loss alot.. properly setup and tweaked there is little to no extra draw on the alternater etc...with huge gains at the low-mid-high rpm range, as well as keeping long term maintaince costs down...and increase gas milage..I've run this belt for 6 years? and 40k+ miles..6k miles a year... delivering food! lots of stop go, get there now...it needs replaceing..i'm at 200,000 miles and going down the checklist of things that could go wrong..


In the end i want a 10-12k rpm motor...so a stressed timing belt would be bad, if a belt / motor even lasts in endurance runs at that speed...the alternater belt keeps coming off or actually breaking -.-
The goodyear alt belt i have now seems good to go tho..

so i'm trying to think of a poor mans way of bypassing the water and oil pumps..only if i can supply a replacement method for it to run..

electric water pump and a oil pump..hoses..easy.stuff...

but how do i make these factory parts idle..without working against the new design? or messing up my engine..or getting overly complex..i'd like for this to be safe and easy for others to do..

i've been able to bypass the a/c pulley with the same belt by getting a bigger idler pulley..

i'm thinking the same thing should work here... remove the pulleys, remove the inner workings.. seal them off.. useing the old parts modified or some fabricated plates..

get a bigger idler pulley...route the belt minus the water pump and oil pump...fit to spec..resize and adjust things as needed..

it'd be nice to have an engine to illustrate this -.-
theres gotta be something to hinder makeing it a easy swap out...

like the oil pump.. how am i gonna tie lines to it...if its pretty much all internal...would the replacement plate be able to be the location of oil lines.. or would the belt etc interfere with the operation...??

my method for the oil pump bypass would be as above^^ remove the oil pumps parts, but retain a seal at that location..and the pump and lines would instead run through an oil cooler and oil filter bypass. at the oil filter location... would this be a good location for the replacement oil pump? why or why not?

repeat with water pump..route a pretty good flow water pump, using the current coolant lines..and mounting the pump securely...what would i be looking for to make the water pump bypass work long term and under stresses?

 

[soccerplayaz16]

To me it sounds like a giant waste of money... there are tons of people out there that are making power and having a reliable car without anything near what you are talking about. Just my .02

 

[pazsion]

yea, but it's not all that complicated or a hassle.. and will be well worth it...your takeing out parts known to fail, and cause catastrophic damage to your engine...and if you like working on cars this shouldn't be a challenge by any stretch...except for troubleshooting the early stages of the project..

besides i'm talking about not spending money where you dont need too...

i spent $40 on an oil cooler...this gave me a plate that bolts inline with the oil filter....

and
@2@ of these...

18L/min High Volume DC12V Brushless Water/ oil Pump. Ideal for Solar & Heating System

Amazon.com: 18L/min High Volume DC12V Brushless Water/ oil Pump. Ideal for Solar & Heating System: Sports & Outdoors

one for your water and one for the oil...

my main concern is with the oil.. wont i need to maintain atleast 60psi?
if i get a pump that goes beyond that i will blow up my engine...
how much psi will the water side take?? can't be more then 60-100psi..

$130 planned to be spent so far..

possible weight savings?

removeing mechanical parts from water and oil pump, includeing pully's
i can't be exact but, i'd estamate about 20-30lbs of metal could be removed...maybe more..the entire water pump assembly.. then entire oil pump assembly...you could probably put some fitings in the holes left behind and tie a pump in there...or plug those holes off..


http://arrc.epnet.com/autoapp/9307MIT/chiltonimages/7000/7923PG10L.gif

c/o project 2g's tbr guide..really breaks it down!! really helps illustrates things here..
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-420a-specific/262003-timing-belt-replacement.html

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right away you see alot of weight potentially removed... and you also see where the tensioner's mounting point may be compromised..more fabricating =c

and routeing of the belt becomes complicated...

and i've hit a wall as to how the camshafts are actually powered =c

mechnics of it all suggest the freakin oil pump also powers the camshafts..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Neon_engine



atleast it might be worth bypassing the water pump with something lighter and more powerful -.-
and a little assitance oiling cams wouldn't be bad...even assiting these areas would have less stress on the belt..

but if you could please explain how the oil pump is attached to the crankshaft? that can power the camshafts??

knowing this it's easy to imagine how a timineg belt could fail just by revving it up and dropping it in gear..or even downshifting...or both at the same time... that belt is going through alot =c

my goals in all this hypothisizeing

reduce parasitic loss...reduce wear on an already weak but crucial part... the timing belt.

 

[juvi1624]

Ohhh, Are you talking about for a 420a? I wondered why none of your pictures made sensor at first, and why you couldn't find parts to do it cause people do the electric water part conversion all the time on 4g's.
However, if I were going to do that extensive of work for the oil pump, I would look into a dry sump system. I've seen some people post very impressive gains when switching, like 40-50 hp gains, of course we're talking about 600+hp cars to start with so don't expect to gain 40-50hp on you stock 140hp car.

 

[pazsion]

176 hp and 160 lbs of torque.. min estimated..without hydrogen.. could be more or less i havent gone and dynoed it.. but this is based off similar modifications. i'd be over 200hp with 1000cc injectors and fuel pump..but i want to get a programmable ecu first..fuel milage and durability is my goal with this car. with Performance on demand. Not all the time..


it's like people think the 4g63 is any more powerful.. its the same exact engine except for matereals used on the internals...140 min 160 maybe in the gst / x whp..stock..

most people never go beyond 5500 rpm...

anyway, a dry sump oil system and water assit.. is easy to do.. and i'll probably do it..

but if i have a system in place that can perform 4x better then the oem equipment..and even better without it.. then why have all that metal and bottleneck?? just take em off the car...

my source of confusion and weither or not it can be done without messing up the engine, depends on how the oil pump ties into the crankshaft to the timing belt..

from what i've read.. it's suggested that you can remove the oil pump, and this shaft connected to the crankshaft directly?? should remain..

If that shaft goes with the oil pump when removed...bypassing the oil pump can't be done.. and i'll have to make do with adding weight at the expense of gaining 5-30hp.. with just using the oil sump pumps... and take out the water pump..

which is why i made this post... to troubleshoot the process.. with people who have removed the oil pump for replacement, same with the water pump.. if you have photos that would help me alot.