Unorthodox Racing Lightened Pulleys - Squeeling When Cold...

[SpawnedX]

Ok, so I put on Unorthodox Crank, Water Pump and Alternator pulleys (I have eliminated AC and PS from my car). I can hear a little extra crank rotation noise, which is pretty normal for lightened and under-drive pulleys. I am using the stock belt, and have tightened the adjuster all the way up and it has good tension, definitely not loose and I don't think it is tight, I would say just right.

When it is really cold outside I get what sounds like a rubbing or squeaking noise from what seems like the crank pulley area, soon as it warms up it is gone, but it goes away gradually throughout the temperature range. Belt is in good shape.

Anyone had a similar experience/resolution? It shows no sign of rubbing anywhere. I am also wondering, since noise travels, would a too lose alternator pulley do this only under heavier load?

I should probably define heavier load, the battery is pretty much dead, so when I get the car running even turning the radio on will cause her to die, so the alternator is doing all the work.

 

[SpawnedX]

Also during further research, in theory you guys may be correct, if not for one problem, chances are that stock dampener is not doing it's job at higher HP and RPM applications which can lead to the same fatal problems. So really this seems like an argument of theory and the only real way to go is to get an ATI or Fluidampr or this new Unorthodox one to protect your motor.

 

[thumper_1151]

I think it is not worth the risk. why chance it for such a minamal gain. also if you look at any reputable pro race cars they all have some kind of harmonic/vibration damper. as said above it does not have anything to do with balancing the engine rotating assembly. it is about absorbing harmonics/vibrations of the crankshaft.

 

[SpawnedX]

It seems the general consensus in the huge thread discussing this, is the risk is not worth the cost of a minuscule gain. However this set was free to me.

However, there is evidence, and I still stand behind it, that this dampener is not doing quite the fantastic job people think it is. Therefore, I am not sure I can subscribe to the belief that this pulley is a perfect storm of crank shattering.

 

[Epic904]

Yes you are right the the entire rotating assembly is balanced at the factory, they use a range to balance the assembly. Some motors are more balanced than others. To say you don't need a harmonic dampener and then post a link to unorthodox racing site with there new design for a dampener means they too know that not all motors are balanced the same. If our cars didn't need a dampener they wouldn't have had one from the factory. The engineers at Mitsubishi and Dodge used them for a reason.

 

[SpawnedX]

I only posted the link when I found it. I said the same thing to the person who showed it to me, that it gives credit to the other side of the argument.

However, ATI is very adament that the stock dampener is probably doing crap for those of us running above stock HP ratings, and their reasoning makes sense.

I have also e-mailed some well known shops about it.

I will not name the shops or who responded, but of the shops that have responded the consensus is identical. In theory it sounds correct, but they too are seriously doubting how much that stock dampener is really helping.

Yes you are right the the entire rotating assembly is balanced at the factory, they use a range to balance the assembly. Some motors are more balanced than others. To say you don't need a harmonic dampener and then post a link to unorthodox racing site with there new design for a dampener means they too know that not all motors are balanced the same. If our cars didn't need a dampener they wouldn't have had one from the factory. The engineers at Mitsubishi and Dodge used them for a reason.

Also the argument "Mitsubishi and Dodge used them for a reason" is kind of funny and a little moot.

Seeing as how this is the same company that has numerous bolts holding on your intake manifold to the head yet puts a useless bracket under the manifold to hold it up.

How about a boost solenoid? Useless.

Manufacturer's are known to also be over-cautious.

 

[Rob10_99]

numerous bolts holding on your intake manifold to the head yet puts a useless bracket under the manifold to hold it up.

That bracket is there so the tabs on the intake to head don't break off, aluminum sucks for stress.

 

[Epic904]

Well think about, the rubber is there to absorb the vibrations from the motor, no argument in that.Yes they probably don't do that great of a job but the cars from the factory weren't meant to be modded to the horsepower numbers were are able to make these engines produce today. I agree, the manufacturer is over cautious, as with all car manufacturers they want their product to last and not come back within the first few years.

 

[SpawnedX]

All I am getting at is the amount of examples of a snapped crankshaft I can find is minimal, and we have no idea of being positive that this was just because, if at all, they had a non dampener pulley. I also notice that most of them run a 95-97. I am starting to wonder if the crankshaft during this range was just pure garbage from the get-go.

But hey if I snap my crankshaft in this 63, I will post it, along with the pictures of me putting in my 2.4 build with an evil grin and an ATI/Fluidampr pulley on it, if ## doesn't hurry and release theirs.

 

[blackrosenova40]

1. Lol our cars do have harmonic dampeners.

2. Yes our cars are internally balanced, thats why our dampners do not have a counter weight on them.

You obviously did not do your searching correctly.

No offense, but when does the bad information cycle stop on this site.

1. Our cars do not have harmonic dampeners.

2. Our engine is balanced internally, the cranks included, this is why we have balance shafts. To balance the engine internally, which is why a lot of these people always forget that they removed the shaft and put on lightweight pulleys and had issues, the same issues they would have with the OEM crank pulley.

Before I purchased these, I did ton of research on it, including wading through the crap.

Unorthodox Racing

Once again this post is in no way shape or form towards snowboarder, I have no idea his level of involvement in technical knowledge. He could have read the same misconceptions and trusted them on face value. I just want to clear the air for people who did not buy pulleys for this reason alone.

It may be the belt, this I agree.

 

[SpawnedX]

1. Lol our cars do have harmonic dampeners.

2. Yes our cars are internally balanced, thats why our dampners do not have a counter weight on them.

You obviously did not do your searching correctly.

You have anything useful to add now that the rest of us hashed this out already, or do you want to just repeat things?

 

[blackrosenova40]

I just wanted to repeat it to beat it into your thick head. Didnt know if telling you fifty times was enough. You come in here and post a thread about a measly squealing belt, which is fine, then when you were told what the right thing to do was, you turn around and start yapping like a smartass and saying what you being told is wrong.

Next time you come asking for help, don't turn your back immediately like you know it all.

 

[unorthodox]

Ok, so I put on Unorthodox Crank, Water Pump and Alternator pulleys (I have eliminated AC and PS from my car). I can hear a little extra crank rotation noise, which is pretty normal for lightened and under-drive pulleys. I am using the stock belt, and have tightened the adjuster all the way up and it has good tension, definitely not loose and I don't think it is tight, I would say just right.

When it is really cold outside I get what sounds like a rubbing or squeaking noise from what seems like the crank pulley area, soon as it warms up it is gone, but it goes away gradually throughout the temperature range. Belt is in good shape.

Just wanted to answer the original question since all the experts neglected to handle it. We specifically provide the part#'s of the smaller belts you will need when running our pulley sets on the 4G63. You are likely at the end of the tensioner throw and when everything is cold the belt is just slightly too loose. Go to you site and download the installation instructions. We also sell the belts or you can get them from a local auto store in your area.

On to the facts.

1. ATI & Fluidamper are selling a bogus damper for the 4G63. Because the crank pulley on these engines mounts with 4 bolts there is no way to interference fit a real torsional damper to the crankshaft without making a whole new crank with a different snout design. If they deny this then they deny the most basic fact about how a damper must mount to the crankshaft. The 4G63 crankshafts fail for two reasons: 1. Poor tuning - too much detonation will crack a crankshaft in a heartbeat! 2. Too much power, these cranks were not designed for more than twice the HP at best, the fact that they stay together as long as they do is a testament to good tuning.

2. Balance shafts are specifically designed to counteract harmonics, period!

3. Aluminum actually does dampen slightly, due to its soft nature. Would we call it a damper, "no". The factory crank pulley is specifically designed for NVH control under the hood for the occupants of the vehicle. Deny it all you want but the fact is simple, the amount of mass required to do any useful torsional damping is far in excess of the outer section of the stock crank pulley. This is why we are still here 13 years after we broke onto the market!

4. Aluminum is not more prone to squeel! Where do you people come up with these facts. Fabrication as usual. Many factories have used aluminum and plastic for accessories pulley for years.

5. ## is a cheap pulley/s? Now that's a first! We are not cheap because we build the parts right. All run outs are 0 to a few ten thousandths. Balance is 0 grams, fit is perfect (if not on the snug side), finish that nobody has even gone half way to meet. You want to talk about knock off's that we then fine but don't lump ## in there. Every other wanna be that has tried over the last 12 years has only hurt the credibility of ## pulleys because the parts don't fit, they are not balanced they look like garbage and they all cause vibration of other rotational issue.

We will not debate these facts because they are solid and unbreakable.

Respectfully,
Shawn Baumgartner
##

 

[SpawnedX]

I just wanted to repeat it to beat it into your thick head. Didnt know if telling you fifty times was enough. You come in here and post a thread about a measly squealing belt, which is fine, then when you were told what the right thing to do was, you turn around and start yapping like a smartass and saying what you being told is wrong.

Next time you come asking for help, don't turn your back immediately like you know it all.

So that's a no. We do not have harmonic balancers, is what I meant to say and our motors are balanced from factory. So where is the bad information?

Where is your concrete proof that YOU are correct? Not posted here, that is for sure. The only thick headed people are those who think everyone will accept what they say because they said so.

 

[JusMX141]

2. Balance shafts are specifically designed to counteract harmonics, period!

Does this mean that 4G63's with the balance shafts removed will require the use of a rubber-dampened harmonic balancer?

 

[Turbo Monk3y]

Look around, view those who are FAST, that HAVE BEEN fast and continue to go FAST... They run either the ATI, Fluidampr or OEM.


Nobody wants to be the noob..... Some people are just born to play the part...

 

[unorthodox]

Does this mean that 4G63's with the balance shafts removed will require the use of a rubber-dampened harmonic balancer?

A tighter balance of the rotating assembly will be necessary but the engine will never run as smooth or quiet without the shafts.

Look around, view those who are FAST, that HAVE BEEN fast and continue to go FAST... They run either the ATI, Fluidampr or OEM.


Nobody wants to be the noob..... Some people are just born to play the part...

May as well stick with the stocker if you belive the damper myth cause the ATI and the Fluidampr are a waste since they don't do more than the stocker since they can't be interference fit. No interference fit, no true dampening possible which is funny since no stock crank pulley we make a replacement for is interference fit (except the Chrysler 2.0/2.4 SOHC/DOHC engines but its because they have no keyway). Not even the damper boys can refute this fact. If your engine has a snout you can interference fit a crank pulley and your make 3-4 times stock HP I can accept the desire for a torsional damper but under that power its a waste of money and power. 98% of the performance cars out there don;t make those type of numbers so why bolt on a boat anchor, more weight means less power to the wheels. We will eventually offer a damper for interference fittable imports but only after we hit the domestic V8 market.

Not sure what your point is but we've been doing our pulley thing for 13 years. We've been on 70 HP Civics to 1700+ HP Supras. Some of the most respected tuners have used our pulleys on their own personal vehicles from Brice at Alamo Autosports on his Evo's and many other cars to Dusty at MVP Motorsports on his GTR to Vinny Ten's award winning Supra to Joe Demaree's Civic with B18 to Interantional Auto's Civic with H22A to Passen Motorsports Speedvision Supra to A&L Racing's RX7 and the list goes on and one and on.

Stop hating.

Respectfully,
Shawn

 

[JusMX141]

A tighter balance of the rotating assembly will be necessary but the engine will never run as smooth or quiet without the shafts.

Good to know as I jump into building my AWD's engine next summer. Obviously there will be more vibration felt- I just wanted to make sure these vibrations wouldn't be hardful to a stock crank without the use of a rubber-dampened pulley.

I actually own an Unorthodox pulley that I bought secondhand many years ago but never installed on my stock engine for fears of crankshaft breakage. Once the engine is built and the rotating assembly is balanced, it will put my mind at ease a little more.

Do you recommend the crankshaft be balanced with your pulley mounted (if possible) or unmounted?

 

[SpawnedX]

Couple of things that I am thinking about relating to this is one the pulley gets real hot it is sitting right next to the block. The moment rubber gets hot as it would in this circumstance, it looses almost all of it's native properties. So, I am starting to agree more with the statement from Unorthodox as to the usefulness of the damper.

Another thing they mentioned was that this damper was more of a theory on our motors due to the non-interference style snout. This is actually true, the twist would be on the bolts in this design and hardly any dampening would happen at the insert. Combine this with what I just posted above and we have a damper that seems at all odds against working.

Another thing that our motors have that is different from other similar motors is the style of girdle we use on the crank. I would call it a superior design if anything. However, wouldn't the girdle also help with this twisting. Also the bearings are made of soft metal and usually take the brunt of force transferred through the crank. So I could see being worried about the bearings, but the crankshafts splitting can be a number of things, that probably would have happened damper or not, like a bad detonation. I seem to recall a poster here who use to be snapping cranks left and right, he changed flywheels, pulleys, dampers, it still happened. Then he replaced the block and it never happened again. So it could also be material defect or something out of spec, which Mitubishi and 2G cranks is notorious for.

Just food for thought.

 

[rEclipserGST]

Couple of things that I am thinking about relating to this is one the pulley gets real hot it is sitting right next to the block. The moment rubber gets hot as it would in this circumstance, it looses almost all of it's native properties. So, I am starting to agree more with the statement from Unorthodox as to the usefulness of the damper.

Another thing they mentioned was that this damper was more of a theory on our motors due to the non-interference style snout. This is actually true, the twist would be on the bolts in this design and hardly any dampening would happen at the insert. Combine this with what I just posted above and we have a damper that seems at all odds against working.

Another thing that our motors have that is different from other similar motors is the style of girdle we use on the crank. I would call it a superior design if anything. However, wouldn't the girdle also help with this twisting. Also the bearings are made of soft metal and usually take the brunt of force transferred through the crank. So I could see being worried about the bearings, but the crankshafts splitting can be a number of things, that probably would have happened damper or not, like a bad detonation. I seem to recall a poster here who use to be snapping cranks left and right, he changed flywheels, pulleys, dampers, it still happened. Then he replaced the block and it never happened again. So it could also be material defect or something out of spec, which Mitubishi and 2G cranks is notorious for.

Just food for thought.

Did he re-balance it though? Mitsubishi is not THAT over-cautious, if they were... we would not have all these tech threads on how to fix things.

But as far as the undampened stuff goes... any people running this unorthodox pulley and running 12's?

 

[SpawnedX]

Balance really has nothing to do with torsional vibration, it will help with motor vibration, but these are 2 different things.

There is a guy on NewEngDSM.org running 11s with the Unorthodox pulley.

 

[Rob10_99]

Balance really has nothing to do with torsional vibration, it will help with motor vibration, but these are 2 different things.

Yeah he lost a lot of credibility with me when he related the balance shafts to anything related to forces on the crank BESIDES keeping the block from moving up and down.

 

[whe3ls]

Also during further research, in theory you guys may be correct, if not for one problem, chances are that stock dampener is not doing it's job at higher HP and RPM applications which can lead to the same fatal problems. So really this seems like an argument of theory and the only real way to go is to get an ATI or Fluidampr or this new Unorthodox one to protect your motor.

absolutely correct. if you look at the higher reving v8's that use the stock dampers they are cracked.

 

[unorthodox]

Good to know as I jump into building my AWD's engine next summer. Obviously there will be more vibration felt- I just wanted to make sure these vibrations wouldn't be hardful to a stock crank without the use of a rubber-dampened pulley.

I actually own an Unorthodox pulley that I bought secondhand many years ago but never installed on my stock engine for fears of crankshaft breakage. Once the engine is built and the rotating assembly is balanced, it will put my mind at ease a little more.

Do you recommend the crankshaft be balanced with your pulley mounted (if possible) or unmounted?

- The balance shafts help all the other internals by counteracting many of the damaging harmonics. I would say that unless your building a race motor for non-street use install the balance shaft. Not having the stock pulley will make no difference unless you are really pushing the power envelope at which point you need to get into better internal components to truly handle the higher HP numbers (2.5 - 3) times stock HP.

- No balance is necessary for our pulleys but with the rotating assembly getting balanced it couldn't hurt. 2 minutes to bolt it on at that point. I would suggest you push the engine builder to 0 grams balance the assembly. Many builders talk about blue printing which is a off as far as 5-6 grams. Pay the extra to go 0 grams, every Honda motor off the line since the late 80's has been 0 gram.

Enjoy
Shawn

 

[blackrosenova40]

Unfortunately this thread should have no bearing on what balance shafts do as they don't pertain to needing a damper.

A damper is need because metal flexes. A crankshaft flexes. This can cause a horrible frequency of vibration that can eventually cause bearing wear or crank splitting. Think of sound breaking glass, same concept. Now take the same glass and fill it with rubber, the rubber will absorb the vibration and cancel it with heat.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECNDpCYvaOc

 

[SonySlave]

Regardless of what the lightweight crank pulley is doing, I'd love to see how well his alternator is running while it's being underdriven by that pulley he has on it. You're already having battery voltage issues. Coincidence? DSMs already have enough problems with alternators as it is, let alone lowering its efficiency by using an underdrive pulley.