Timing

[wishihadatalon]

Hey, well we are starting to get somewhere with this tune..When i go to the track i run ave gas and the knock goes away.. so i know its real know...we took more timing out of the mid around 4-5k thats where the knock comes on real bad...pulled it down to 12-14 degrees through there and then slowly back up to 20-21 by 7k....works way better..pullin about 4-5 degrees through the mid and it works.....why would it knock the worst there....the more i rev it out the knock actually goes down...and i got the timing goin up....hmmmm kinda weird...you would think that it would knock more with more rpm..this was all at 21psi...goin to check the base timing tonight and go from there....then try to up the boost again....Any ideas as to why it knocks at 4-5k and then slowly goes down as i rev it??????? Got rid of the nasty 24degree stock spike at 6k too...the more i rev it the better now....6.5k about 19-20 and by 7-7.5 its about 21....way better......

Your peak tq should happen a little before 4k and that is where the most load on the engine occurs. Seems like you are on the right track.

 

[GORBS88]

You're starting to see how knock is managed in the ecu. As you know, whenever the ecu hears knock, the knock count goes up. Each time the count goes up is another knock event. But the ecu does not raise the timing back up right away, it keeps the timing down to make sure the motor doesn't knock again, even if it doesn't pick up any more knock. When the logs show the knock count slowly going down, it's because the knock sensor did not pick up any more knock, even though the knock count hasn't dropped to zero yet. So check the datalogs and look for where knock goes up, then pull timing out there. Now that you have an EPROM you can add or subtract timing at 500rpm increments.

Timing should go up as rpms climb. Don't be afraid of running low timing around 4krpm, it's necesary at those rpms, and don't be suprised if the motor doesn't knock with high timing at 7k rpm. It works. Just for comparison, here's the timing advance I'm using on my Laser with the 16G:
rpm timing
3k....10
3.5k..11
4k....13
4.5k..15
5k....17
5.5k..19
6k....21
6.5k..21
7k....21

How's your timing look?

My knock starts at 4-4.5k and then stays there for abit then slowly drops....Your timing graph you showed here is the exact one i am using now...i found it in one of your older posts and copied it...made all the difference...good to know that the knock numbers will stay up even know its not knocking anymore...thanx for the info...well i will keep these numbers for afew days then try and up the boost...

 

[GORBS88]

Ohhh, just a quick question about base timing...It is still set at 0...Now i should beable to advance it to 5 again since i am tuning it with the chip..I am controling the overall advance with the chip so wouldnt retarded base timing just hurt my throttle responce and nuthin else???? The way i am thinkin is it wont affect my overall timing now since i am limiting my overall advance already....Pls advise if i am wrong...i need the throttle responce back..

 

[TSIfreek]

I would try the 3g lifters and a new knock sensor if you havent done so already.

 

[TSIfreek]

O also do a boost leak test I bet you have a leak at the TB shaft seal among other places. Everything needs to be perfect on these cars or they run like a ss

 

[pneumo]

Ohhh, just a quick question about base timing...It is still set at 0...Now i should beable to advance it to 5 again since i am tuning it with the chip..I am controling the overall advance with the chip so wouldnt retarded base timing just hurt my throttle responce and nuthin else???? The way i am thinkin is it wont affect my overall timing now since i am limiting my overall advance already....Pls advise if i am wrong...i need the throttle response back.

Your CAS still adjusts timing across the whole range. If you advance the CAS to 5, you'll add 5 degrees everywhere.

There are a few sections on the stock timing map where timing is reduced in order to smooth out the power delivery. Fixing it will improve throttle response without affecting WOT tuning. Like I said earlier, timing should go up as rpms go up, and timing should go down with higher airflow(load). If you look at the stock timing map you'll see that there are two sections where timing is lower than optimal. Look at the area around 1250-1750 rpm at load levels 1-4, (light load) Notice how timing starts low, then goes up as load goes up? For example at 1250rpm and load levels 1-7 the timing goes downward like this: 18 19 21 24 24 22 15...
I changed it so the timing looks like this: 20 21 23 26 25 23 15... If you feel confident, try something similar at 1500 and 1750 rpm so that whole section blends together better.

There's another section around 1500-2500rpm around load levels 7-10. If you follow the timing progression across the map (left to right) you'll see it go up, then drop down, and shoot back up again. For example, at load level 8 between 1500-2500rpm the stock timing is: 18 15 15 20 I changed mine to read 18 18 19 20. This eliminated a dead spot in the map. I have a feeling that Mitsu engineers reduced timing here to soften the power as the turbo spools up so it wouldn't hit so quickly. Bigger turbos won't spool up in that area, so it just creates a flat spot in the powerband and kills throttle response. HTH

 

[GORBS88]

Your CAS still adjusts timing across the whole range. If you advance the CAS to 5, you'll add 5 degrees everywhere.

There are a few sections on the stock timing map where timing is reduced in order to smooth out the power delivery. Fixing it will improve throttle response without affecting WOT tuning. Like I said earlier, timing should go up as rpms go up, and timing should go down with higher airflow(load). If you look at the stock timing map you'll see that there are two sections where timing is lower than optimal. Look at the area around 1250-1750 rpm at load levels 1-4, (light load) Notice how timing starts low, then goes up as load goes up? For example at 1250rpm and load levels 1-7 the timing goes downward like this: 18 19 21 24 24 22 15...
I changed it so the timing looks like this: 20 21 23 26 25 23 15... If you feel confident, try something similar at 1500 and 1750 rpm so that whole section blends together better.

There's another section around 1500-2500rpm around load levels 7-10. If you follow the timing progression across the map (left to right) you'll see it go up, then drop down, and shoot back up again. For example, at load level 8 between 1500-2500rpm the stock timing is: 18 15 15 20 I changed mine to read 18 18 19 20. This eliminated a dead spot in the map. I have a feeling that Mitsu engineers reduced timing here to soften the power as the turbo spools up so it wouldn't hit so quickly. Bigger turbos won't spool up in that area, so it just creates a flat spot in the powerband and kills throttle response. HTH

Ok, i understand that the base affects the whole timing map,where i havent tampered with it but in the places i have, i have set a cap on how much advance i want.. When i retarded my base timing without the chip yet, it got rid of alot of knock cause i lost afew degrees across the board...When i retarded it more once i got the chip done it didnt affect it at all.Well it did in the untouched area but in the area i adjusted it all stayed where i set it,because i made my own advance there..Lets say at 4.5krpm i am limiting my timing to 14degrees with the chip, that means that is what it will hold at that rpm knowmatter what the base is????Thats the point of the chip isnt it..??? the reason for the chip is to set a max advance at any particular rpm even know the ecm wants more i have taken it away, to my set number...so how would raising my base raise MY timing map that the chip is limiting???Mabe im confused how this works but........

 

[pneumo]

Yes, you're confused about how this works. Talk to your friend with the Ostrich, he'll know what to do.

The CAS is separate from the ECU. The two do not know what the other is doing. If you turn the CAS and change the base timing, the ECU does not know it.

I mean, you adjusted the CAS before you got the eprom and it made a difference everywhere, right? Adjusting the CAS will still make a difference everywhere. The only way to adjust the timing at different points is to use the eprom chip and reprogram it.

Base timing is 5 degrees. It is set by adjusting the CAS. The timing you see on the logger assumes your base timing is set to 5 degrees. If you rotate the CAS and set the base timing to 0 you will have to subtract 5 from the timing you see on the logger. Why? Because the ecu and the logger do not know what is going on with the CAS. So if you set the eprom chip so timing is 14, but your base timing is 0, then you really have 9 degrees timing. If the base timing is set to 7 and the logger shows 14, then you really have 16.

 

[GORBS88]

Yes, you're confused about how this works. Talk to your friend with the Ostrich, he'll know what to do.

The CAS is separate from the ECU. The two do not know what the other is doing. If you turn the CAS and change the base timing, the ECU does not know it.

I mean, you adjusted the CAS before you got the eprom and it made a difference everywhere, right? Adjusting the CAS will still make a difference everywhere. The only way to adjust the timing at different points is to use the eprom chip and reprogram it.

Base timing is 5 degrees. It is set by adjusting the CAS. The timing you see on the logger assumes your base timing is set to 5 degrees. If you rotate the CAS and set the base timing to 0 you will have to subtract 5 from the timing you see on the logger. Why? Because the ecu and the logger do not know what is going on with the CAS. So if you set the eprom chip so timing is 14, but your base timing is 0, then you really have 9 degrees timing. If the base timing is set to 7 and the logger shows 14, then you really have 16.

WOW, thats alot of info to take in....thanx, you seem to know your stuff...Now whats better?? less base timing and more on the chip??? or set base to 5 again and then take it off with the ostrich????? pls help....i checked the base timing and it was -5 degrees..so that means that i was only seeing 10 degrees overall at 7krpm??? 20-10=10....wow how does it make power at that timing??? So that makes my situation even worse...means i have even less timing then i am seeing....means my knock is even worse then i thought........ .. base at 5 then off the ostrich or 0 base and more on the chip....pls

 

[pneumo]

Your base timing was set to negative 5 degrees? wow so that's why you wanted some throttle response back so badly. How did you check that? -5 is off the scale, it's not even marked on the crank pulley pointer. There's 10, then a mark at 5, then zero, then the marks end.

First I'd double check your base timing. Make sure you're looking at the timing marks from a low angle, since it can make the timing look retarded if you look at it from above. If it really is at -5 then you'll have to do some retuning. Start by turning the boost down a few psi. Set the base timing to 5` BTDC like it's supposed to be, then do some logging. Post up what you find. Good Luck!

 

[GORBS88]

Your base timing was set to negative 5 degrees? wow so that's why you wanted some throttle response back so badly. How did you check that? -5 is off the scale, it's not even marked on the crank pulley pointer. There's 10, then a mark at 5, then zero, then the marks end.

First I'd double check your base timing. Make sure you're looking at the timing marks from a low angle, since it can make the timing look retarded if you look at it from above. If it really is at -5 then you'll have to do some retuning. Start by turning the boost down a few psi. Set the base timing to 5` BTDC like it's supposed to be, then do some logging. Post up what you find. Good Luck!

Yah was set to -5 degrees....Like an inch past 0... Just a guess at what it was, but relative to the same space as 5 is from 0... I set it to 5 like it is suposed to be and my knock went through the roof....well as much as 21 counts... Not horrible but double what it was before...Now it is back around 2-3 degrees...I am lookin at it through the rad support so it is dead on.......I still have the ostrich in the car but no lap top till tomorow night... Now do i leave the base alittle lower to help the knock and then take rest off with the chip or set it to the full 5.. What will be the best for me??? pls lemme know so i can tune again tomorow night...

 

[pneumo]

It's good to have a stable base tune, so I'd leave the base timing where it is at 2 or 3 degrees. I get the feeling if you set the base timing to 5 you'd be pulling timing out everywhere else in the chip, which is a lot of work and leaves more room for errors. Keep it simple so you can keep track of it all.

 

[GORBS88]

It's good to have a stable base tune, so I'd leave the base timing where it is at 2 or 3 degrees. I get the feeling if you set the base timing to 5 you'd be pulling timing out everywhere else in the chip, which is a lot of work and leaves more room for errors. Keep it simple so you can keep track of it all.

THANX, will do....I am tuning again tomorow night... i will advise what happends....thanx for all the help...

 

[GORBS88]

Well i am ready to give up on tuning this car.... Went out and took out as much timing as needed to get rid of the knock and by that time we had so little timing the car was so SLOW... So i got pissed off and put the stock timing map back in less the 24 degree spike at 6k and the car was faster... With full timing the car pulls harder with more knock.... I get 15-20 counts from 4-4.5k up and still have 15-16 degrees advance.... If we take timing out from the chip we end up with 10-12 degrees and no power..... Seems i guess with more timing to start with once it takes it away from the knock there is still more left... IF it starts at 20degrees and takes 5 away from knock i am better off then takin it down to 10-12 with no knock....hmmmm why is that??? WHAT TO DO?????

 

[donmagicjuan]

If you're running pump gas and your AFRs are safe, you're probably just past the maximum safe boost threshold for your turbo. Does the knock go away at lower boost levels?

 

[GORBS88]

If you're running pump gas and your AFRs are safe, you're probably just past the maximum safe boost threshold for your turbo. Does the knock go away at lower boost levels?

Yes, the knock does go down or away with lower boost... I have seen lots of guys able to run 24psi on pump, but also just as many have knock issues like me...i guess i am stuck with a picky car.....How long does it take runnin ave gas to contaminate a O2 sensor?? I am thinkin about runnin ave gas all the time...i can get it for the same price as 94... I only drive the car 1-2 times a week... Would this work... I want to turn the boost up and keep it there... Is this possible if i only put on 50k a week???? Very little use...

 

[donmagicjuan]

Yes, the knock does go down or away with lower boost... I have seen lots of guys able to run 24psi on pump, but also just as many have knock issues like me...i guess i am stuck with a picky car.....How long does it take runnin ave gas to contaminate a O2 sensor?? I am thinkin about runnin ave gas all the time...i can get it for the same price as 94... I only drive the car 1-2 times a week... Would this work... I want to turn the boost up and keep it there... Is this possible if i only put on 50k a week???? Very little use...

When you say ave gas, you mean aviation gas, not average gas, right? I don't have info on the ETA of a dead O2 sensor, but if you want to reliably run 24 psi or greater on pump, I would recommend saving up the $300-400 for an alcohol injection kit. I couldn't be happier with mine. I'm not trying to redirect the thread to a discussion about this, which I fear is now an inevitability, but it is one option.

 

[GORBS88]

When you say ave gas, you mean aviation gas, not average gas, right? I don't have info on the ETA of a dead O2 sensor, but if you want to reliably run 24 psi or greater on pump, I would recommend saving up the $300-400 for an alcohol injection kit. I couldn't be happier with mine. I'm not trying to redirect the thread to a discussion about this, which I fear is now an inevitability, but it is one option.

Yah when i say AVE gas i do mean Aviation fuel...I have easy access to it thats why i mentioned it....As for the water injection, that is a really good idea...I didnt really want to resort to it to run higher boost but looks like i am gonna need to....I will look into it some more...then i can turn it to 24-25 on pump and not even need to run AVE gas at all.. ...

 

[TSIMonsteR]

This thread is full of good information. To the poster, have you tried turning the boost down and throwing some more timing at it? Some cars like timing more then boost...

A dyno tune may help you out more then you know