Timing

[GORBS88]

Hey guys, just got a question about timing?? My mods are up to date in my profile, what base timing are you guys runnin and what boost levels...??? At 20psi on 94 octane i had to pull base timing back 2-3 degrees to get rid of some knock...Is this normal?? what are your guys opinions on this??? my A/F ratio is 11.1-1, real safe...Is this normal to pull some base timing??? thanx guys...lemme know your boost,timing and A/F ratios aswell....thanx

 

[desolateboosted]

It's normal to pull some base timing running that amount of boost on pump gas. I also had to pull timing on my car before when it was stock and I was only boosting 15psi. Timing advance won't go very high on pump gas because the detnation threshold is limited.

 

[GORBS88]

Does anyone want to share what base timing they are runnin and what boost levels??? I know lots of you have retarded it but just wont say or what?? I want to turn the boost up some more....Will 94 octane be enuf??? i want 24 psi daily.....Will retard base down to 1-2 degrees.......Anyone else want to share????

 

[donmagicjuan]

Does anyone want to share what base timing they are runnin and what boost levels??? I know lots of you have retarded it but just wont say or what?? I want to turn the boost up some more....Will 94 octane be enuf??? i want 24 psi daily.....Will retard base down to 1-2 degrees.......Anyone else want to share????

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you won't be able to run that much boost on pump gas. The turbo just isn't efficient enough at that pressure ratio and heats up the air too much. I'm currently able to run 25 psi on my EvoIII, but only with alcohol injection. Before that mod, I was limited to 20 psi by knock.

 

[larsrya8]

What is the peak timing that you are running now (with 2-3 degrees pulled)? The 1G's have a much more aggressive timing map than the 2G's, so pulling timing on a 1G isn't unheard of.

 

[GORBS88]

What is the peak timing that you are running now (with 2-3 degrees pulled)? The 1G's have a much more aggressive timing map than the 2G's, so pulling timing on a 1G isn't unheard of.

Well right now i am set at 3degrees base.... I had lots of knock at 19psi at 5 degrees base with real low overall advance... retarded it 2 degrees and somtimes my overall advance is as high as 21 degrees... , so it definetly helped...but average is around 17-19 overall....So i am goin to take 2 more degrees out and turn the boost to 22psi and see what happends....I have my a/f ratio pretty rich aswell at 10.6-10-8... lemme know what you think...

 

[pneumo]

I think you're on the right path. Try it and see.

You might also notice the motor looses responsiveness at part throttle when the base timing is retarded. You can bring some of it back by leaning out the low and mid settings a little.

 

[TurboDSMer]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you won't be able to run that much boost on pump gas. The turbo just isn't efficient enough at that pressure ratio and heats up the air too much. I'm currently able to run 25 psi on my EvoIII, but only with alcohol injection. Before that mod, I was limited to 20 psi by knock.

F*ck that. Last year on my Evo3 i was running 24 psi on pump stock smic and no knock what so ever. It's all about the tuning and if it's thier no reason why you can't run 20psi on pump. I also never used any type of injection to aid me to prevent knock.

 

[GORBS88]

thanx guys, appreciate the help... As for the throttle responce, i did lean the mid out abit to help aid it...So its not bad right now at all..But im sure if i go 1 degree base it will be kinda doggy...I'll just have to deal with it....Trade off for more boost....hehe..So i will retard it abit more and then turn up the boost and mabe lean it out abit....will let you know what happends. Might be a few days.....Thanx again guys

 

[donmagicjuan]

F*ck that. Last year on my Evo3 i was running 24 psi on pump stock smic and no knock what so ever. It's all about the tuning and if it's thier no reason why you can't run 20psi on pump. I also never used any type of injection to aid me to prevent knock.

Well hurray for you. If what you say is accurate, then you're probably one of a select few people who have accomplished such a feat. Either way, you're not exactly providing a positive contribution to the thread, as it is pretty well known that an EvoIII DOES reach the edge of its efficiency range at a pressure ratio that equates to approximately 20-21 psi of boost. And to clarify, I never said you can't run 20 psi on pump gas. That, in fact, was what I was running before my alcohol injection. To blindly imply that anyone can crank up their boost controller to 24 psi and not expect to have issues is simply poor advice. Shame on you.

 

[TurboDSMer]

Well hurray for you. If what you say is accurate, then you're probably one of a select few people who have accomplished such a feat. Either way, you're not exactly providing a positive contribution to the thread, as it is pretty well known that an EvoIII DOES reach the edge of its efficiency range at a pressure ratio that equates to approximately 20-21 psi of boost. And to clarify, I never said you can't run 20 psi on pump gas. That, in fact, was what I was running before my alcohol injection. To blindly imply that anyone can crank up their boost controller to 24 psi and not expect to have issues is simply poor advice. Shame on you.

Actually i said it's all about the tuning nothing about turning up a boost controller. and last time i checked the EVO3 starts to run out of it's efficiency range at 26psi. I have not done my own personal calculations just stating what i have read on this forum and on others, but if what you say is true then so be it. I would never recomend to any one to turn up the boost and just run it, I highly advise tuning with any change in boost level. So before you try to make me sound like an asshole who is telling people to just run the piss out of thier car why don't you actually read my post and see the message.... TUNING IS KEY!

if you want to continue this matter feel free to pm me.

 

[TurboDSMer]

My base timing is 5 deg advanced and all of my other adjustments are done via DSMLink. I run around 24-26psi.

 

[donmagicjuan]

I was prepared for your rebuttal, so I took the liberty of digging up an old thread for your viewing pleasure. Take a good look at post #16. If you're able to run 25 psi with no knock on pump gas, then all that says is that you're seeing lower airflow than everyone else, which puts you inside a higher efficiency island. I'd be interested in seeing a dyno chart from your old setup. I wasn't out to make you look like anything; I was just doing my part to ensure the original poster proceeded with caution.

Here's the thread:
http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156068

 

[TurboDSMer]

Not going to continue this but according to my DSMLink i was flowing at least 38lb/min with a stock SMIC, no cams, or SMIM. Maybe my DSMLink was off but i don't think it was as i am almost positive i set everything up right. don't have the old logs, got a new laptop other one shit the bed, but all i was stating is what my personal car did. And i would never advise any one to do something i wouldn't even do.

 

[wishihadatalon]

well here is a question for you guys. Running that much boost through a 16g what was your afr and total timing advance?

 

[donmagicjuan]

At 20 psi with stock cams and no alky, I was running 11.2:1 and was seeing ~18-19* of timing by redline. I'm throwing the car on the dyno tomorrow to tune with FP2s and alky for ~25 psi (right now it's still a tad rich), so if you're interested in those numbers I can get back to you.

 

[andymoraitis]

For the original poster, I also agree that you're on the right path in terms of killing knock in the correct manner considering your setup. The biggest problem you'll face is that if you're only tuning with the MAFT, the airflow subtraction for injector compensation will jack the timing. A better tuning device would help, as would methanol but subtracting SOME base timing will help. Since you have a lower compression ratio than the 2G's you'll be able to get away with a bit more boost and timing before running into knock.

The fact of the matter is that every motor reacts a bit differently to timing and boost relative to knock. While there are general principles that apply, the variance between what two equivalent motors will tolerate becomes apparent through direct comparison.

If I was you, I'd back off a bit more base timing or add some more octane to the mix. If I had the choice between the two, I'd always choose more octane. It's safer for the motor and allows you to maintain performance levels.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Andy

 

[andymoraitis]

well here is a question for you guys. Running that much boost through a 16g what was your afr and total timing advance?

On the 2.0 and stock cams: 11.5: 1 A/F with 18 degrees advance with a Big 16G at 26psi. This was on 100 octane unleaded and I saw 2-3 counts of knock at the top of third.

 

[wishihadatalon]

On the 2.0 and stock cams: 11.5: 1 A/F with 18 degrees advance with a Big 16G at 26psi. This was on 100 octane unleaded and I saw 2-3 counts of knock at the top of third.

Interesting. Right now I am seeing 11.3:1 afr with 19 degrees to about 6k with 18lbs and it is fun. Boost spike is my issue right now though cause when it spikes it knocks really really bad. I have tried to take out about 3 degrees of timing up there and add a hair of fuel but no luck. I know its real knock too because the plugs have specs on them

When I put in some 110 my afr went crazy and I couldn't run more that 20psi cause my spike was so high I was hitting my boost overrun protection and maxing out my puny 2 bar map sensor. I have a 4bar going in and I can't wait to push this turbo hard. Hopefully I will get 112mph out of it.

What kind of times did you run with the info above?

 

[wishihadatalon]

At 20 psi with stock cams and no alky, I was running 11.2:1 and was seeing ~18-19* of timing by redline. I'm throwing the car on the dyno tomorrow to tune with FP2s and alky for ~25 psi (right now it's still a tad rich), so if you're interested in those numbers I can get back to you.

Yeah let me know how it goes.

 

[andymoraitis]

What kind of times did you run with the info above?

I never ran at the track at 26psi since the 2.0 spun a bearing shortly thereafter, but on the same setup with stock cams at 24psi, it went 12.57 at 107.85 with an 11.7:1 at 23 advance (pump gas and octane boost). I've never run the car on race fuel. That was also on 550's with a sidemount and nothing other than an EPROM ECU for tuning.

 

[GORBS88]

For the original poster, I also agree that you're on the right path in terms of killing knock in the correct manner considering your setup. The biggest problem you'll face is that if you're only tuning with the MAFT, the airflow subtraction for injector compensation will jack the timing. A better tuning device would help, as would methanol but subtracting SOME base timing will help. Since you have a lower compression ratio than the 2G's you'll be able to get away with a bit more boost and timing before running into knock.

The fact of the matter is that every motor reacts a bit differently to timing and boost relative to knock. While there are general principles that apply, the variance between what two equivalent motors will tolerate becomes apparent through direct comparison.

If I was you, I'd back off a bit more base timing or add some more octane to the mix. If I had the choice between the two, I'd always choose more octane. It's safer for the motor and allows you to maintain performance levels.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Andy

well i am ready to burn the car...... When i started this post i was tuning the 680's with just the maft, i could understand with all the extra timing it would cause me problems...BUt since then i have gotten a eprom ecu and got the injector compensation for the 680's and it still knocks just as much...how the heck does that work??
I tryed playing with fuel but made no difference...10.2-11.9 afr and knock doesnt change....thats weird too...I have pulled base timing down to 0-1 degree and still seeing 11 counts of knock in third at 20-21 psi on 94 octane...grrrrrr... So then hooked up the ostrich and my buddy pulled some more timing out....to get no knock in 3rd gear pull we had to pull overall timing to 9 degrees.... what the heck is goin on... i am ready to give up if i cant run more then 20 psi on this thing...anyone pls help...what am i missing.........

 

[andymoraitis]

I'd like for you to add a bunch of octane (race fuel) to the mix, put the timing back to stock and let the 1G ECU run it's normal advance. We need to see if the knock is real and adding octane is the best way. If it goes away, it was real and there's something wrong with the tune. If it doesn't go away, I'd suspect:

1. Knock sensor is failing or overtorqued
2. Fuel volume or supply issue (check the pump voltage)
3. Fuel filter is clogged
4. Injectors are not flowing correctly

Whatever you do, NEVER run a total of 9 degrees advance on stock internals. You're just asking for that motor to grenade itself since cast parts can't handle the heat that 9 degrees of total advance will make.

Keep us posted,

Andy

 

[GORBS88]

I'd like for you to add a bunch of octane (race fuel) to the mix, put the timing back to stock and let the 1G ECU run it's normal advance. We need to see if the knock is real and adding octane is the best way. If it goes away, it was real and there's something wrong with the tune. If it doesn't go away, I'd suspect:

1. Knock sensor is failing or overtorqued
2. Fuel volume or supply issue (check the pump voltage)
3. Fuel filter is clogged
4. Injectors are not flowing correctly

Whatever you do, NEVER run a total of 9 degrees advance on stock internals. You're just asking for that motor to grenade itself since cast parts can't handle the heat that 9 degrees of total advance will make.

Keep us posted,

Andy

Hey, well we are starting to get somewhere with this tune..When i go to the track i run ave gas and the knock goes away.. so i know its real know...we took more timing out of the mid around 4-5k thats where the knock comes on real bad...pulled it down to 12-14 degrees through there and then slowly back up to 20-21 by 7k....works way better..pullin about 4-5 degrees through the mid and it works.....why would it knock the worst there....the more i rev it out the knock actually goes down...and i got the timing goin up....hmmmm kinda weird...you would think that it would knock more with more rpm..this was all at 21psi...goin to check the base timing tonight and go from there....then try to up the boost again....Any ideas as to why it knocks at 4-5k and then slowly goes down as i rev it??????? Got rid of the nasty 24degree stock spike at 6k too...the more i rev it the better now....6.5k about 19-20 and by 7-7.5 its about 21....way better......

 

[pneumo]

You're starting to see how knock is managed in the ecu. As you know, whenever the ecu hears knock, the knock count goes up. Each time the count goes up is another knock event. But the ecu does not raise the timing back up right away, it keeps the timing down to make sure the motor doesn't knock again, even if it doesn't pick up any more knock. When the logs show the knock count slowly going down, it's because the knock sensor did not pick up any more knock, even though the knock count hasn't dropped to zero yet. So check the datalogs and look for where knock goes up, then pull timing out there. Now that you have an EPROM you can add or subtract timing at 500rpm increments.

Timing should go up as rpms climb. Don't be afraid of running low timing around 4krpm, it's necesary at those rpms, and don't be suprised if the motor doesn't knock with high timing at 7k rpm. It works. Just for comparison, here's the timing advance I'm using on my Laser with the 16G:
rpm timing
3k....10
3.5k..11
4k....13
4.5k..15
5k....17
5.5k..19
6k....21
6.5k..21
7k....21

How's your timing look?