Timing off a bit? Pics

[Spoolin4Ever]

Looks like my timing is off a bit. THe bottom end is lined up, but the top is not. Very close, though?

 

[snowborder714]

You need to look at the inner cam gear marks at eye level, not from above. They should line up with each other, as well as the valve cover gasket that is behind the cam gears (if you look past the marks, you'll see it). Also make sure the crank and oil sprocket marks are lined up.

 

[blcknspo0ln]

Count the timing belt teeth.

#1 should be the first tooth above the 9 o'clock exhaust cam gear line
#39 should be the actual tooth that the 3 o'clock intake cam gear line goes through.

When the crank and oil pump timing marks line up, the inner cam gear marks will line up parallel to the timing cover, but the outside gear marks will be slightly off, hence the straight line method does not work for ALL FOUR cam gear marks.

 

[donniekak]

Usually on a car with a decked head or block, the lower timing mark will not be in the exact center of the notch anymore. As long as the crank timing mark is in the notch when the cam marks are exactly lined up, it's as good as you will get. Usually the mark on the front cover will be almost at the edge of the notch on the crank plate on an engine with a decked block and head. This is because the head is now closer to the crank centerline, and this causes the cam timing to be slightly retarded.

 

[Spoolin4Ever]

Usually on a car with a decked head or block, the lower timing mark will not be in the exact center of the notch anymore. As long as the crank timing mark is in the notch when the cam marks are exactly lined up, it's as good as you will get. Usually the mark on the front cover will be almost at the edge of the notch on the crank plate on an engine with a decked block and head. This is because the head is now closer to the crank centerline, and this causes the cam timing to be slightly retarded.

The head was decked, the block was not. You think it looks pretty good, huh? Cool.

I will count the teeth as wiseman above said, I saw that post (seperate thread write up about the 6 bolt in a 2g) as well.

FInally, I noticed if I torue the pulley center bolt to 32 lbs. it might want to change the tension. Is it really supposed to be torqued to 32 lbs? Seems like alot. I need to go look in the manual. But the guy that did the 6bolt/2g thread said to tighten it to 32 lbs.

 

[donniekak]

I can't tell if it's good by the pics. But, if you line up the cam marks exactly, and the crank mark is still in the indent, even if not perfectly centered, it's as good as it will get.

 

[1glaserturbo]

Looks off, how do the crank and oil pulley look?

 

[92DSMErdrick]

Like snowboarder says you have to look eye level with the valve cover gasket not from a top angle. What was the reason you did your timing belt? Have you run the car yet since checking this.

Also like donniekak says, look at the lower timing mark on the crankshaft sprocket. Line that one up as good as you can and then double check the cam gears. From your pics it looks like it's a half a tooth off. . . makes me think you don't have the bottom timing marks lined up right.

 

[blcknspo0ln]

FInally, I noticed if I torue the pulley center bolt to 32 lbs. it might want to change the tension. Is it really supposed to be torqued to 32 lbs? Seems like alot. I need to go look in the manual. But the guy that did the 6bolt/2g thread said to tighten it to 32 lbs.

That's my article and yes, factory service manual calls for 35 ft/lb of torque on that bolt.

VFAQ states:
# Rotate the camshaft timing belt tensioner pulley so that the pinholes are under the center bolt. Tighten the center bolt to spec (48 Nm (35 ft-lbs)) (Figure 19).

And part of my article says how you should think about torquing that bolt:

*EDIT* More tips:

1G tensioner arm - Since you are rotating it clockwise and you tighten the bolt clockwise, when you torque the bolt down it will cause MORE tension on the belt. So, to prepare yourself for this, start by tensioning the pulley until it is at the threshold of the pin being loose. This will be on the loose end of the tolerance and when you torque the bolt down, it will bring it more towards the middle/end of the tolerance, but still acceptable.

2G tensioner arm - Since you are rotating it CCW and you tighen the bolt clockwise, it will loose the tension when you torque the bolt down. To counter this, you will need to take the tbelt tension to the tight end of the tolerance and torque down so that it brings it to the middle/looser end of tolerance.

This is a guesstimate, but I just timed a car yesterday and gapped correctly and *eyeballing it* it looked like a 1/4" belt deflection on the slack side of the belt (between the pulley and bottom of exhaust gear) on each side.

**IMPORTANT**
Last thing to note is that when you are tensioning the pulley, HOLD your desired position for 10-15 seconds before you torque the bolt down. After you hold, check the pin for looseness and then proceed to torque down if everything is good. You are holding the position so that you give the autotensioner a chance to adjust to it's truer position (which is a hell of a lot more accurate than tensioning and torquing quickly). Of course, still check gap after 15 min.

Once you get the grenade pin to spin freely, go ahead and take a wrench or socket wrench and tighten the bolt down to 35 ft/lb. At this point you want to verify that all timing marks are still on point. One thing to check is if the cam timing marks are still straight. If they are not, you may want to rotate the exhaust cam one tooth to offset the "natural" movement.

and regarding the 4 lines not lining up:


3. Now to move onto the cam gears. Let them rest in a natural position first then string the timing belt over only the gears. Take a binder clip (vice grips, zipties, whatever) to hold the belt over the intake cam gear [I like using zipties since the belt does not need to be clamped into place tightly, just enough so that it doesn't slip], it does not matter what position the teeth are in.

This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 640x480.


Next, take 2 17mm wrenches and position them as such in the above picture. I like to keep my intake cam steady and rotate my exhaust cam clockwise to align the timing marks. You do not need to move the cam gears a whole lot to achieve the correct timing. I've noticed that these cars take only a tooth or two on the exhaust side to move into the correct position. If you find that you are fighting to keep the gears in position, chances are you are rotating them too much.

Here is a picture of the natural position versus the adjust position.

This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 640x480.


Here is a thread explaining a bit more on why all 4 gear marks do not necessarily line up in a perfectly straight line. Given some calculations (and just by experience) It is not a 180* affair, but more along the lines of 176* or so. The most important thing to understand is that the two center marks need to be parallel to the head surface (and of course each other) and that the 39 teeth are counted. Also, dowel pin position will NOT be at 12 o'clock, it's rather irrelevant, so don't worry about this.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/cyli...#post151581115

 

[Spoolin4Ever]

Thanks much, I really appreciate it.

I found that the natural position varies: once before I had gotten oil on my timing belt and had to buy a new one, it was exactly as many are saying: the intake cam gear was already about right, and turn the exhaust cam forward a tooth past being correct to get the belt on,l and it was right on.

But what happened is I accidentally broke my tensioner. I think what happened is I turnd the pulley real hard CCW when the center bolt was tight, and it broke the tensioner, or I screwed down the special tool too fast and broke it that way. It got oil on the pulley and the belt. Also before that, I poured oil into the head with valve cover off, sadly the upper timing belt was off, and a small amount of oil got in there. Almost every stupid thing you could do, I did this time around. Hopefully that will make next time a breeze.

Something interesting I noticed is that, depending on how long the engine has sat, or maybe how long since you last rotated the crank, the natural position will vary.

Because the last time I went back to the car, it didn't act like what you were saying, turning the exhaust one tooth forward didn't quite do it. Kind of weird. I think it has 2 different natural positions depending on the amount of air in the cylinders.

So my timing was off, we reset it. Both my cam gears were just slightly "inward", and would result int the exhaust cam gear being forward one full tooth (basically the opposite of what people are saying, and even the TSB says) once you get the belt around the crankshaft sprocket and idler pulley. But I was doing it the way you say, where you turn the ex. forward a tooth.

In this case, using 2 17mm wrenches to set the cam gear timing helped get it right.

As far as setting the tensioner, here is what I did:

Tensioner pulley installed with the 2 holes verticle (up and down) at 7 and 11 o'clock, finger tight.

Leave pin in tensioner

Using my left hand to hold wrench with special tool: Put the special tool into the holes in pulley, and rotate clockwise so the holes are at 10 and 2 o' clock. Hold it there, and with 14MM open end wrench in right hand, reach under and tighten and torque it at the same time.

Fell pin, will not move at all. (yikes!) wt heck is wrong? What could it be?

Rotate crankshaft 1/4 turn back.

Rotate crankshaft 4 turns clockwise (with BS removed, 6 if you still have your balance shafts).

Feel pin; moves in and out so easily!

Wait 15 minutes: Feel pin; moves in and out so easily!

Checked it with an allen wrench i don't recall the exact size, but it was in the range specified for checking distance in between tensioner body and tens. pulley arm.

(optional) Wait a couple hours: Feel pin; moves in and out so easily!

There we go!

PS I love this forum!

 

[blcknspo0ln]

pure win

fyi, I believe that the only reason the tensioner pin moved from being 'stuck' to 'freely moving' is because you didn't give it a chance to settle before you tightened the 14mm bolt. When adjusting the tensioner, you need to give it a couple of seconds to auto extend itself after the initial tension, so it settles itself.

 

[Rob10_99]

Yep, damn oil pressure!
Glad you got it sorted,

 

[Spoolin4Ever]

Yep, damn oil pressure!
Glad you got it sorted,

I believe you have the wrong thread, sir.

Thank you for your support, though!

I like that sig pic, DSM'n in the snow is a blast!