Thinking of going to the dark side... Nitrous or Water?

[MrBoxx]

Are you serious? Did you ever go to school? Are you familiar with thermo dynamics?

Water does not leave the combustion camber as vapor...

I beg to differ. If I remember my schooling correctly, when a hydrocarbon (gas) is burned (oxidized) the result is: heat, carbon dioxide, and water vapor. http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h55.pdf Check page 2, first paragraph and page 4, second paragraph of that link.

 

[NewTurboTuner]

Well he seems to thinks he's serious

MrBoxx
You might be correct in saying: "The water is not breaking down into its component elements upon injection; it is merely vaporizing into very small water droplets". ...OK. MAYBE upon injection, but that's it.

If what you guys are saying is correct; Nitrous systems would Not work. Nitrous is n2o.
Nitrous is injected just for the oxygen molecules. If the oxygen in h2o is worthless ....then why does it do so much in n2o???

 

[MrBoxx]

But nitrous isn't just injected for oxygen molecules. It's injected at high-pressure because the expansion of a gas makes it boil, rapidly dropping in temperature, while absorbing a lot of heat from the surrounding environment (see also CO2 fire extinguisher). Once exposed to temperatures above 570F, the molecule splits, providing a bit more oxygen. Since there is more oxygen percentage-wise than in ordinary air, that's where the "more oxygen" idea comes from. But ideally, you want to increase fuel as well, so the added power doesn't just come from addition oxygen, but additional fuel AND oxygen.

 

[NewTurboTuner]

Hey Boxx
I read it and it says: "The hydrocarbons in fuel normally reacts only with oxygen during the combustion process to form water vapor" OK...sooo? Water vapors are "formed" during the combustion process.... I didn't hear anyone state anything about how water is formed in the combustion chamber, but I guess you did nix the statement about how "Water does not leave the combustion camber as vapor"

I noticed where it says that Hydrocarbons react with Oxygen.
salle could you please explain why you say hydrocarbons DO NOT react to oxygen in h2o? And could you also please explain why hydrocarbons DO react to oxygen in n2o?

Just to let it be know. I'm not for, or against anyone. I am for Facts, along with Good Advice, and against BS.
I'm not on here to be a d1ck and start crap... I was trying to give good advice. If I'm wrong about something then show me the facts, but please don't just argue, and say its wrong without giving reasons to why its wrong. Boxx did it right... If anyone proves me wrong like that I'll give'em props, and gladly take in the new info.

 

[NewTurboTuner]

Hey Boxx
Most of that sounds correct. But I dont get why you say; "nitrous isn't just injected for oxygen molecules"? ......The oxygen is the main ingredient that helps the extra fuel burn.

Also with n2o you say "Once exposed to temperatures above 570F, the molecule splits".
Does that apply to h2o as well? ....Meaning that when water/meth is injected; the oxygen in the h2o should split, making a little extra oxygen available for combustion?

Of course I know that the little bit of extra oxygen in the h2o doesn't help much compared a bunch of pressurized n2o, but in theory... wouldn't it help a little if the oxygen in h2o is released and used during the combustion process?

Thanks

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I'm not sure, as I'm only a mythbuster-wannabe, but is it not note worthy that n20 is actually extremely flammable whereas water is not? That might contribute to the explanation why the water isn't being broken down into individual atoms of hydrogen and oxygen... which could potentially produce unpredictable results..*cough* Hindenburg..


EDIT: besides if h20 can be so easily seperated into the 2 different fuels, hydrogen and oxygen, in a usable form by means of a simple water/meth injection kit you'd think we'd be driving hydrogen or water powered cars by now.


Carry on...

 

[MrBoxx]

Piper, actually, N2O is NOT flammable by any means. It is ONLY an oxidizer. Just like oxygen by itself is not flammable, N2O can't "catch on fire" or explode, regardless what yelling "NAAWWSSS!!" at a green Eclipse shows you in the movies. Both chemicals only oxidize other materials which are able to be oxidized, such as hydrocarbons. The reason nitrous oxide tanks do explode is because the contents are under pressure, and when exposed to fire, the tank bursts, releasing a bunch of nitrous oxide into an environment where there are objects to oxidize, i.e. seats, plastic, etc.

I'm not totally sure of the exact chemisty of the situation, but my suspicion is that nitrous oxide breaks down into its components much easier than water will, as far as the type of bonding that the atoms use to combine to the other atoms in each molecule. Even so, when you burn hydrogen, you get heat and... water vapor.

 

[thegchild04]

Yea I am all for setting it straight, I am sorry if a am wrong

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Thanks for the lesson MrBoxx, damn television ruining my scientific career!

 

[aero_sallee]

Aero_sallee is correct on the correct usage of the word "atomization." The water is not breaking down into its component elements upon injection; it is merely vaporizing into very small water droplets, creating more surface area to absorb heat. The same occurs when you spray water from a perfume bottle, the injector nozzle is basically the same. The only easy way I know of to break down water into hydrogen and oxygen is through electrolysis. And that's not happening inside the engine or the intake tract.

As has been said it will not break down at the temperatures present inside a combustion chamber. N2O will due to its lower decomposition temperature. That temperature for H2O is over 2000 degress celcius. Which no engine that I am aware of will even come near.

Water does not leave the combustion camber as vapor...

As MrBoxx said, water is a byproduct of combustion of hydrocarbons. It actually does leave as vapor, the easiest way to observe it is to take a look at the exhaust of a car that has just been started. The vapor will condense and form steam, and liquid water which will drip out the tailpipe until it warms up enough to prevent condensation.

Most of that sounds correct. But I dont get why you say; "nitrous isn't just injected for oxygen molecules"? ......The oxygen is the main ingredient that helps the extra fuel burn.

Also with n2o you say "Once exposed to temperatures above 570F, the molecule splits".
Does that apply to h2o as well? ....Meaning that when water/meth is injected; the oxygen in the h2o should split, making a little extra oxygen available for combustion?

Of course I know that the little bit of extra oxygen in the h2o doesn't help much compared a bunch of pressurized n2o, but in theory... wouldn't it help a little if the oxygen in h2o is released and used during the combustion process?

It does apply to H2O, just not at temperatures achievable in a combustion chamber. And actually the amount of oxygen and hydrogen that can be released from a given amount of water is quite massive.

Just to let it be know. I'm not for, or against anyone. I am for Facts, along with Good Advice, and against BS.
I'm not on here to be a d1ck and start crap... I was trying to give good advice. If I'm wrong about something then show me the facts, but please don't just argue, and say its wrong without giving reasons to why its wrong.

I am here for the same reason. I did not intend to start anything with anyone, or to be a dick. I was simply trying to correct the small amount of misinformation present in your post. It may not have been presented as well as it could have.

 

[NewTurboTuner]

Good clearification areo salle ...that helps alot to understand.
My bad on the miscomunication earlier

 

[my98GST]

So really and truely, water/meth inj. would be the best way to go?

 

[aero_sallee]

So really and truely, water/meth inj. would be the best way to go?

I know two people here in my town running a devilsown water/meth kit. The kit uses PWM to control pump speed and ramp up injection pressure with boost. Both of them absolutely swear by water/meth and really like the kit also. All the posts on here I've read people love the results of their water/meth setups also.

Its by far cheaper to keep refilling than nitrous too.

 

[TSIMonsteR]

You guys are getting me excited to get my devils own kit. Good information in this thread. If I could commit to posting a novel like some of you guys, I would have given my insight, !

 

[my98GST]

All I'm after is "nitrous like results" without the worries of the extra stress put on the engine from nitrous + a turbo...