The car won't start!

[pixelharmony]

So I've been driving my girlfriends 93 Eclipse GS. The problem is that the car has been garaged for 7 years!!! So aside from its mint condition it had a few problems. Since her dad is a mechanic he made sure it was up to par and it did drive very well for a while.

Recently I think I pumped in some bad gas somewhere and it ate up the filter on one of the fuel lines. So the cylinders 2 and 4 kept on getting clogged. Once that problem was fixed one day when driving the car all of a sudden lost power (like it ran out of gas).

When I try to gas, nothing happens. When I tried to restart the car it barely started and soon shut back off. Now the car won't start back up.. it always sounds like it is just about to start, but there's not enough juice.

Her dad's diagnosis is that the fuel pump isn't doing its job.

Aside from doing basic engine work like... intake & exhuast install, oil change, switching spark plugs, etc. I don't have advanced knowledge of how to fix this car (though I'd always love to learn)

Two questions:
1. Where should I buy a fuel pump? I know there are a lot of aftermarket parts floating around the net. Yet I just want to keep the fuel lines stock pressure. Is it safe to buy this off a used car? I don't know what the longevity of a fuel pump is.

2. Is a DIY install fairly difficult, or is this something that can be done by someone with basic knowledge on installtion?

Thanks a lot, a buddy of mine has a 3G GSX with a lot of problems as well so I'll try to get him to join this forum too.

 

[femmeDSM]

Could be the fuel pump, but before you pull out the pump, verify the fuel pressure. Any number of things can cause low fuel pressure (which is what your problem sounds like to me). Could be a bad fuel filter, a loose bolt on the filter, bad gas/dirty gas tank, a bad fuel pressure regulator or a fuel leak somewhere in a line. I think you'd notice a large fuel leak, but check all the lines and fittings just to make sure.

Get a fuel pressure gauge and check the pre-rail, post-filter fuel pressure. According to the service manual, stock fuel pressure for a 1g non-turbo should be 47-50psi w/ FPR Vacuum line disconnected.

As far as installing a new fuel pump, yes, it is generally okay to go used with these, within reason. A new OEM fuel pump from the dealership will run you quite a bit, so used might be your best bet, unless you want to go aftermarket. You will need to talk to the N/T guys about your options there, though.

 

[GTM]

Could be the fuel pump, but before you pull out the pump, verify the fuel pressure. Any number of things can cause low fuel pressure (which is what your problem sounds like to me).
...

If I may jump in here I would rather see him check fuses, relays, and power to the pump as a first step. These are not labor intensive or require a lot of skills, they do require a 12v test light, a cheap DVM and maybe some small jumper wire(s).

Not meaning to be insulting to anyone's parent it's best to not let someone else steer you into a path of condeming a pump when a fuse or relay has failed. Too many novices and professionals alike have been snookered into this when 5 minutes of testing will better isolate the problem.

My quick method after checking for burned fuses is to pull the starter solenoid wire and then turn the key to crank (start position) whereupon the pump must run if all is well. This is easier if someone is holding the key and the other is crawling around the car listening for the running pump.

Since I don't have access to a manual I can't give specifics on relay location and testing. Perhaps someone will jump in here and provide this information for his car.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[femmeDSM]

If I may jump in here I would rather see him check fuses, relays, and power to the pump as a first step. These are not labor intensive or require a lot of skills, they do require a 12v test light, a cheap DVM and maybe some small jumper wire(s).

.....

Good advice, as always. However, what led me to the assumption that the problem is likely fuel pressure rather than electrical was the following statement:

When I tried to restart the car it barely started and soon shut back off. Now the car won't start back up.. it always sounds like it is just about to start, but there's not enough juice.

If the fuel pump isn't turning on, the car will just sit there and crank, and crank, and crank, but never start, or never "almost" start, as is the case in this situation (at least by my understanding).

A fuel pressure test is also not labor intensive, and takes (me, at least) less than 10 minutes to complete.

 

[GTM]

Good advice, as always. However, what led me to the assumption that the problem is likely fuel pressure rather than electrical was the following statement:
If the fuel pump isn't turning on, the car will just sit there and crank, and crank, and crank, but never start, or never "almost" start, as is the case in this situation (at least by my understanding).
A fuel pressure test is also not labor intensive, and takes (me, at least) less than 10 minutes to complete.

My fuel pressure gauge is built in, when you pull a line and it sprays everwhere it must have been working in recent history. That's professional license and not exactly something I would endorse any more than I would advocate using an impact wrench for torquing heads in the hands anyone without 20-30 yrs as a pro. That aside my concerns are that fuel pressure gauges for this application are not easily found and can be expensive if you have to supply several adaptors.
.....................

I read through the symptoms at least a couple of times as well as your replies and I came up with an interesting condition that sometimes will trip people up when sorting this out.

He gets a few hits and then stops, he releases the key from crank mode maybe pausing at _on_ for a second or so. With a cold engine it takes a while to pump oil pressure which is slow to drop below the oil pressure switch activation threshold. The brief delay in the _on_ position causes the oil pressure switch to activate the pump relay as if it thought the engine was running. Back to on and of course the oil pressure is too low by now yet when going to start the pump does not because of a relay(s), voltage drop caused by starter draw but the residual pressure in the fuel line fires some or all the injectors until this minimum threshold is reached.

This sequence can be repeated time and again and will seemingly defy logic even when testing until you locate the culprit. One moment you have pump operation and by the time you get zoned in with test light or DVM ready to prounce it's gone. This and some other crazy experiences are why I almost always go for pump operation first. There is nothing wrong with going after a pressure check first and I've seen many co-workers do this.

He could have a couple of bad spark plugs from what he described as fouled injectors which now are not really contributing to the start sequence which would account for it wanting to start but not quite at times.

Hopefully he will get back to us with his discovery and repair solutions.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[pixelharmony]

Thanks for all your input.

Again her father told me first to check the fuses, second to maybe hit the fuel pump or check to see if power is going to it. Then if all else fails replace it.

As for more information on the situation, I was driving the car on the highway and all of a sudden the car slowed down and came to a stop and started back up but died before I could put it in gear, then it wouldn't start up anymore (it almost always starts but probably no fuel). I doubt its the injectors or sparks since there was no buckling of the engine.

About three months ago when the filter went bad from dirty gas with water in it all the debris clogged up 2 injectors. So upon that I replaced all the injectors and check the spark plugs. All the plugs fired correctly and the injectors were good. I remember back then when I pulled the fuel rail the gas spurted out... so hopefully that won't be the case here with no pressure.

I did a compression test back then while I was at it... irrelevant really, but everything was in order. I might also add if I didn't in the first post that this car is a 93 and it only has 45k miles on it. From 1997-2005 the car was not driven, or started up. It was just sitting in the shop next to all the other cars that were just hanging around for a long time (most of those were sold.. I guess no one wanted the eclipse despite the excellent condition and low miles). So again this car wasn't driven for a long long time.

I was debating if I should sell the car or fix it and keep it. As for an opinion, what would be the difference in price I would get if I sold this car "as is" without fixing the fuel issue or if I fixed it and sold it (I found an aftermarket pump for $120 on ebay)? Keeping in mind that the car is in immaculate condition with a superficial dime sized ding near the gas lid. Interior is flawless and exterior is flawless as well. I think the KBB said I could fetch around $3,900 for this car if it was running.

Thanks a lot for the info guys. This forum has been very helpful and the advice very informative.

 

[GTM]

Thanks for all your input.

Again her father told me first to check the fuses, second to maybe hit the fuel pump or check to see if power is going to it. Then if all else fails replace it.
...
Thanks a lot for the info guys. This forum has been very helpful and the advice very informative.

You are welcome. Yes, giving the pump 1 or more smacks with the end of a hammer handle is quite valid in diagnosing pump problems. This jarrs the brushes into contact on the armature and it may start running either perfectly or with an uneven pulse.

I would like to see you run a hot wire from the battery to the positive side of the pump and make sure it will run and start. If that makes it start and when removed it will not start with factory wires you have something other than pump problems. You don't want to be throwing a pump at it only to find you have relays, ECU or even an ignition switch problem.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[pixelharmony]

So I got a buddy of mine to look at the car. He works primarily with Hondas but he knows his way around the dsms as well.

As you guys assumed when I powered up the car there was no whine from the fuel pump.

We checked the fuses and such and there was no problem. I'm going to go pick up a used OEM fuel pump and replace it within the week, hopefully it'll run fine.

 

[GTM]

...
there was no whine from the fuel pump.

We checked the fuses and such and there was no problem. I'm going to go pick up a used OEM fuel pump and replace it within the week, hopefully it'll run fine.

That's what I like about this place. Ask a question and then don't follow basic steps of testing / diagnostic procedures when someone tries to help. Hard to figure if it's too much like work or lack of skills for DIY. You have received at least 3 opinions and still can't say for sure if if the pump has failed.

Good luck,
GTM

 

[pixelharmony]

That's what I like about this place. Ask a question and then don't follow basic steps of testing / diagnostic procedures when someone tries to help. Hard to figure if it's too much like work or lack of skills for DIY. You have received at least 3 opinions and still can't say for sure if if the pump has failed.

Good luck,
GTM

For me it's mainly lack of DIY skills and time. Since I'm a full time student and work a part time job fixing my girlfriends car wasn't that big of a issue for me since I have my own car. However since school is over and we need to move it I can devote some time to work on this car... If anyone can point me to a link on the helms manual or another DIY for this car where it'll show how to access the fuel pump that'll be helpful.

One reason my buddy said that it's the pump is due to him trying to start up the car. He said the fuel pump should hum but there is no sound coming from it. I will run a hotwire to see if it might be a faulty wire, but due to the fact that this car has been garaged kept for a long long time and the fuel systems has gone through a lot of beating due to fouled gas I'd just assume that it was the pump.