Teins illegal on public roads?

[Siberian]

I noticed in the Tein installation instructions it says the "This product may not be installed in vehicles driven on public roads."

http://www.tein.com/ti/inst/kr56u.pdf

Hello? Excuse me? Is this something that's going to cause me trouble with state inspections, cops, etc.?

Or is this just legal babble from Tein to avoid lawsuits... but nobody really cares what kind of springs I have?

 

[Cesar]

a lot of downpipes are not street legal simply because the company never put the money in to getting them licensed, but nobody will ever say anything. Tein, probably just never bothered getting them licensed, so like you said they are probably just avoiding law suits. I wouldn't worry.

 

[jtmcinder]

Maybe in Canada....

I've never heard of suspension parts getting some gov't license in the States. I've also never heard of a downpipe being licensed. I've heard a lot about making alterations to emissions controls, but our cats are not in our downpipes (unlike Scooby Doos), so this isn't an issue.

I have no idea why Tein says what they say.

- Jtoby

 

[Cesar]

I'm not sure what you meant by scooby-doos, but a downpipe manufacturer has to be licensed under emissions regulations, I remember reading that somewhere, I just dont' really feel like searching through countless sites in order to provide you a link. Besides I was only trying to provide an exaple. Regarding the suspension components, I'm sure it has to pass some sort of standard for safety and performance. They are simply looking out for themselves.

 

[Defiant]

My guess is that they've not gotten DOT certification for use in private motor vehicles on public roadways.

Interestingly, they use a red 2G Eclipse on their webpage:

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/

 

[PaulPDX]

The above and plus it's probably just their corp. lawyer's way of making sure they don't get sued for liability.

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by Cesar
I'm not sure what you meant by scooby-doos, but a downpipe manufacturer has to be licensed under emissions regulations.

A Scooby Doo is a Subaru WRX. You know. The enemy.

I do not believe that a downpipe maker has to be licensed with anybody. (I've been wrong before, though.) I believe that you are thinking of downpipes, up-pipes, and/or headers that have cats in them. These cannot be touched unless the part is damaged or the car is X years old and/or has Y miles on it.

Not that any of this belongs in this forum, of course, unless we can link it up by saying that some downpipes interfere with a RRE lower front stress bar, which is a very good part.

- Jtoby

 

[Cesar]

I can see what you mean by the downpipes with catalytic conv. being regulated. I just wish I knew where I read the article I mentioned.

 

[PaulPDX]

It's probably referring to cars with pre-cats, like the WRX and 300Z TT. DSMs are different, the downpipes are separate from the cat... and most states to require the use of a cat.

Without seeing the article... arguments for or against it are moot.

AFAIK, there are no certification or licensing programs in the states for suspension or exhaust parts. In Germany, however, there is the TUV. All aftermarket parts sold there have to bear that certification to be legal... proving that it is safe and durable enough to use on public roads.

Tein's claim is probably nothing more than their way of avoiding liability law suits resulting from the stupidity of their customers. So if anything does go wrong, they can say that they warned you and it was your decision to use the product... therefor you bear sole responsibility for any injuries or damages. Like the "contents are hot" warnings on coffee cups.

 

[Omega]

You will find that pretty much all the UICP/LICP/DP/exhaust/turbo and other upgardes are technicly illegal. Even an aftermarket air filter causes a red flag. Why do you think the K&N FIPK kits are so expensive? They have gone through the testing to get a CARB #. Without that you can get nailed. Now..that said, most states don't care as long as you can still pass the sniffer/dyno.

I can't explain the TEIN warning though. My best guess is that since you can change the ride height.. and some? states have rules with that then they just threw that in to let you know. It is MUCH easier (cheaper too)to make parts that are "for off road use only" than to get them certified.

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by Omega
You will find that pretty much all the UICP/LICP/DP/exhaust/turbo and other upgardes are technicly illegal.

Please show me a law from any state other than Californicata that restricts what you can do to the intake or turbo. And while you're at it, show me a (non-CA) state law that restricts what you can do to the exhaust that doesn't involve emissions.

Keep in mind that noise is an emission.

Thanks in advance.

- Jtoby <- not an internet lawyer, but I could play one on TV

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by Omega
It is MUCH easier (cheaper too) to make parts that are "for off road use only" than to get them certified.

Similar to the above, please name a state other than California that "certifies" intake, exhaust, or suspension parts for road use.

Thanks again. I'm learning a lot.

- Jtoby

 

[Defiant]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
Similar to the above, please name a state other than California that "certifies" intake, exhaust, or suspension parts for road use.

Thanks again. I'm learning a lot.

- Jtoby

The Department of Transportation is a Federal regulation outfit. It covers all the United States. It's where 50,000-mile emissions-related warranties come from, along with seatbelt, airbag, glass, tire, brake, suspension and virtually all other safety and emissions related regulations are devised. In states that require safety and equipment inspections, Federal regulations are the specs they start with. Some add to those.

 

[90DSMTurboFWD]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
Please show me a law from any state other than Californicata that restricts what you can do to the intake or turbo. And while you're at it, show me a (non-CA) state law that restricts what you can do to the exhaust that doesn't involve emissions.

Keep in mind that noise is an emission.

Thanks in advance.

- Jtoby <- not an internet lawyer, but I could play one on TV

Guess you never been to hawaii. You need to get a stupid little sticker called 'Recon". In order to get this you must first get affadavits from certified stores that say "The exhaust on this car has safely been installed, " and "The rims on this car have safely been installed on this car" Etc etc. Now once you have those you have to do down to the Recon station which is only open from 1pm to 3:30 pm (strange isnt it?) You have to have with you those affadavits, current registration, and alignment papers no more then 30 days old that verify that you are within stock specs. With all those, begins the real inspection. You have to open you hood and they check EVERYTHING possible (Battery tie downs, cam gear covers, intakes, turbos, exhaust leaks and so on and so on, suspention has to have 2 inchs of play, headlights cant be more then 22 inchs from the ground, front plate has to be atleast 12 inchs from the ground.) If one thing is missing, well you have just wasted your time and need to get it fixed and come back. Meanwhile, every cop you see will most likely pull you over and give you a no-recon permit ticket which cost about 55 bucks.

Think I just showed you a lot more then one law..but...

God I love Hawaii!

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by Defiant
The Department of Transportation is a Federal regulation outfit.

So, you're saying that Federal DOT (as opposed to a state DOT) actually certifies specific intake, exhaust, and suspension parts as being road-worthy?

That was my question. I'm very much aware that Fed DOT certifies some things, such as tires, and that most state DOTs copy the Fed, but I've never seen DOT certification of any sort on intake, exhaust, or suspension (which is the issue) with the glaring exception of California's CARB.

As to getting a shop to swear that an installation is correct and safe (e.g., HI), that's another issue. I knew that some states require such and some do not, just as some states have yearly inspections and some do not. But these are off-topic. The issue is whether the after-market parts that we use for intake, exhaust, and suspension need some sort of certification before they can be used at all (regardless of who installs them and/or swears that it was done correctly). I've never heard of such and would like to know if it's true.

- Jtoby

 

[jtmcinder]

After some more thought, I have to say that this thread has become an example of what I really dislike about internet boards.

First someone asks why Teins are labeled: "for off-road use only."

Then someone answered: "because they aren't certified."

The someone else added: "and most intake and exahust parts are illegal, too, because they aren't certified, either."

I asked for some clarification of this, because I am unaware of any agency (other than CARB) that certifies suspension, intake, and exhaust parts. I know that the Fed has rules on cats and other aspects of emissions, and that most states copy these and often add more, but I don't know of any agency other than CARB that actually certifies aftermarket parts. And, if such exists, I'd like to know about it.

But instead of actually addressing the question, I've gotten a bunch of off-point replies. To be clear, I'm not asking about safety inspections, whether they are done at the time of installation or some time later. I want to know what people are talking about when they say that parts need to be "certified."

Not that big a deal, right? People give off-topic replies all the time. So why would I say that this is an example of what I really dislike? Because it is starting to parallel what happens when someone spouts BS. When you call them on it, they give vague or off-topic replies. If you keep pushing, it turns out that what they said was not actually true, or, at least, that they aren't as sure as they originally sounded. But instead of owning up and saying "I was just guessing, really ... sorry about that," they drag it out, hoping that the person who called them on it will lose interest and drop it.

Well, I won't drop it. If there really is an agency that certifies suspension parts for road use (to get back to being focused on the original question of this thread), then I want to know about it. I have put a lot of time into creating a suspension that is good for autoXing and is still OK on a daily driver. None of my parts is certified by anyone. I'm not going to ignore it when someone says that my car is illegal. Put up or shut up.

- Jtoby

 

[Cesar]

Since I was the first to reply to this thread, I'd like to tell you what I think towards what you just said. When I mentioned that some downpipes need to be certified or licensed under emissions regulations, it's because I actually read that somewhere, I did not make that up, or lie, or guess. I stand by it. I even had people respond, and tell me that is was for a different type of downpipe, unlike our cars. I acknowledeged what that person said, and took it into consideration. I learned something.

As far as suspension parts go, there has got to be a company (or organization) that sets the standard for these parts. I think Defiant has already covered that.

Otherwise, I would start my own suspension components manufacturing facility out of my apartment. Or maybe I would start my own standards assossiation, and out my label on other companies components.
If suspension components fail, people die. Simple. People are paid to make sure that doesn't happen. Tein says their parts aren't for highway use. Somebody dies, they're not responsible. People will buy it anyway.
When I responded to the original post, I told him what I thought, and I illustrated a point. He might actually have decide to purchase the product from what I said, and maybe he's installing them as I type this, who knows?

On a different topic. Since you've mentioned things that bother you from the internet boards, I'm going to mention what bothers me.
People who are always trying to start something.

P.S. I'm not questioning your craftsmanship, but if your fabricated susp. components fail, you may be held liable.

 

[Tallen]

Originally posted by PaulPDX
The above and plus it's probably just their corp. lawyer's way of making sure they don't get sued for liability.

I second this. That gets them out of any crap hey may get into...on the road.

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by Cesar
As far as suspension parts go, there has got to be a company (or organization) that sets the standard for these parts. I think Defiant has already covered that.

I read the entire site that Defiant pointed us to. Nowhere did I find anything about certification of suspension parts. I found lots about rules and regulations, safety testing, plus a bunch of other stuff. But nothing about certification.

Your argument that it is true because it must be true is worthless. I think that it must be true that an advanced, civilized country cannot lock people up without any due process. But I'm wrong. I live in such a country.

As to your memory for having read something somewhere ... please make that clear in initial posts on a topic. I have a memory of being Paula Abdul. It's very clear and quite vivid. But I cannot back up my claim, so I usually keep it to myself.

Straight up now, baby.

- Jtoby

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by Cesar
On a different topic. Since you've mentioned things that bother you from the internet boards, I'm going to mention what bothers me.
People who are always trying to start something.

On one hand, I wish there weren't as much conflict on the internet.

On the other hand, I wish there weren't so much BS on the internet.

In my opinion, the latter is a bigger problem. If you disagree with me, then get me banned.

It's really that simple.

- Jtoby

 

[90DSMTurboFWD]

I really dont see why you are bitching about anything. You know what I hate on the internet? People that take other peoples threads and jack them! ahah nah i kidd i kidd

"Many of these generic parts are certified by the Certified Automotive Parts Association, which confirms that the replacement parts are as good or better than the parts used during the original manufacturing, Hansen said. Many times, the factory parts might be made by a subcontractor that is looking more at the initial cost of the vehicle, so the replacement parts might well be held to a higher standard, he said. Tests performed by CAPA have shown the replacement parts have outperformed the parts with Detroit's labels on them consistently, he said."

Wanted prof? there ya go
http://www.allianceai.org/inthenews/8-27-03News1.htm

Deals with non OEM parts.
ANYTHING that goes on a car needs to be DOT approved to LEGALY be used on public roads. When Tien says that they are not to be used on pulic roads, they are saying they did not spend the time and money to get their parts certified by the DOT and therefore are deemed 'illegal'.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/testing/procedures/TP-106-8a.pdf
Might wanna take a look at that too. It has procedures for a lot of car parts, might be susension in there but I didnt bother to read more then 3 of the 54 pages.

 

[jtmcinder]

OK, this is getting closer.

Your first link is to a class-action lawsuit against GEICO (similar to the one that State Farm recently lost), where GEICO tried to cover it's butt saying that "yeah, we didn't use OEM parts to fix your car, but we did use parts that are certified by CAPA." The problem is, CAPA is just a front for insurance companies. It is not a government agency. So all that happened here was that you fell for what the insurance company tried to sell to a judge. Lucky for us (as in people with cars, not people who run insurance companies), it didn't work.

Your second link is dead-on. As I should have remembered myself, brake lines need to be DOT-approved for use on public roads. To the extent that brake lines are suspension parts, the point is made ... there does exist a certification process for at least one suspension part.

Thanks.

Edit: keep in mind that DOT doesn't actually approve a specific brake line (or brake fluid, for that matter); at least, not in the sense that the manufacturer sends a set of lines to the DOT and they test them. Rather, what "DOT-approved" means in this context is that they are made to meet or exceed the requirements that DOT has specified.

I can't help but continue to wonder about DOT-approval for shocks and springs, of course, since this was the original (specific) question.

- Jtoby

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by 90DSMTurboFWD
ANYTHING that goes on a car needs to be DOT approved to LEGALY be used on public roads.

I was getting tired of this, so I called the DOT. It took fifteen minutes and about five hand-offs to get someone on the phone who could address my question (which is actually better-than-average for DC), but then I got clear and concise answers. Here we go.

The above quote sounds great and would go far to explain why some Teins are labeled "for off-road use only," but it turns out to be complete BS. All of you who started talking about DOT this or that when it comes to Tein's warning about "off-road use only" are simply full of it.

There are actually very few items for which there are NHTSA and/or DOT regulations that must be followed. (Remember: DOT doesn't test things; it merely sets standards that must be met in order for a regulated part to be legal on the street.) Here is the complete list:

seat belts
brake hoses & assemblies
lamps
rims
tires

That's it.

There are no regulations for shocks or struts or coilsprings or spring perches or pillowballs. In fact, there is no such thing as a DOT-approved suspension part (if we use automotive terms in the usual way and not include the brakes in the suspension), because there are no regulations.

Similarly, there is no such thing as a DOT-approved downpipe or intake, because there are no regulations. (There are other rules to obey, such as not touching a working cat that is younger than X years old or has fewer than Y miles on it, which could come into play if you have a Scooby Doo, for example, and want to swap in a bigger uppipe, but that isn't a DOT regulation.)

So, Siberian, as to whether you will have problems getting a car on Teins past inspection, it all comes down to whether the person doing the inspection thinks that they are safe. There are no Federal standards that must be met and, according to Fed DOT (although they could not say this officially), no state has any regulations on this, either.

As to you "internet lawyers" who both had me worried and then cost me at least an hour chasing down a red herring ... bite me!

- Jtoby

 

[Siberian]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
I was getting tired of this, so I called the DOT...

Awl, ya beat me to an answer, ... I felt the same way, so I wrote DOT yesterday... but haven't heard back yet.

I also wrote a couple vendors, showing them the Tein web link. They all basically said "Wow! Never noticed that before! Must just be legal BS."

So thanks for doing the research! I guess that's all good news

 

[90DSMTurboFWD]

glade you finaly decided to do your own research and stop asking people to prove stuff to you...