Take a look at my log, 50trim 23psi on meth

[Killa_dsm]

My mods are updated in my profile. I am running a 50/50 meth and water mix. And a pte 5031e at 23psi in this log.

I installed the meth kit recently and I have tested to make sure it works. But it doesn't seem to make a huge difference in knock or the amount of boost I can run.

My log doesn't look too good either. Looks like I have some knock at 5932rpm and my timing does not clime to 16 degrees.

Let me know what you guys think, and what I should do to improve my tune.

Thanks

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[Boost Demon]

Just to get the basics outta the way, you've done a boost leak test right? Do you have the MAF-T setup for your injectors w/ fine tuning done by your S-AFC? Just tryingto get an idea of what you've got going on. If your not happy with your tune, I'd probably start with lower boost (12-15psi) with no meth injection if possible. once you got your tune dialed-in with your tuning devices then fire up the meth.

 

[Killa_dsm]

Just to get the basics outta the way, you've done a boost leak test right? Do you have the MAF-T setup for your injectors w/ fine tuning done by your S-AFC? Just tryingto get an idea of what you've got going on. If your not happy with your tune, I'd probably start with lower boost (12-15psi) with no meth injection if possible. once you got your tune dialed-in with your tuning devices then fire up the meth.

Yes, on doing a boost leak test. I did it today, and found a little leak. I am running the Maf-t setup, with a eprom chip, chipped for 750cc injectors. I also use the S-AFC to fine tune. I was running about 20psi without meth, with only a a couple counts of knock (stock boost gauge converted to knock sum gauge).

If I have to, tomorrow I can retune my setup without meth. At a lower boost level, then try turning on the meth and see if I can get a better tune. But from readying everyones results on using meth, my results dont look as good as others, which kind of concerns me.

Thanks for the help in advance.

 

[420a-t]

Unless you have really high intake temps or have a hard time with high temps in general, I would go with more meth injection. I've ran a 50/50 meth/water, 30/70 meth/ water, and I now am running 90/10 meth/water and I've found the more meth, the better. At last try it with your cuttent tune, and I'll almost bet that your knock will go away.

You need to tune with the meth on. If you are tunning meth injection, it acts like a fuel and your tune will suffer if you throw that on top. I've tried that and I've gone from a 10.9/1 afr before injection to a 10.0/1 afr just throwing that on top to a 11.8/1 afr with a tune. If you were running more of a straight water injection for cooling, it wouldn't be as big of a deal.

 

[scottsee]

you have a pretty small injector, I woluldnt use smaller then an m10 (12gph) on a 50dy.

 

[2gGSX]

Just to clarify, is Hz supposed to be Airflow (lbs/min)? I idle at more than 50 hz airflow. There is no indication that you should be knocking, so my bet is that your base timing is off. Check if you jumped any teeth, and if you want to, you can try following the method in this thread: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/279633-tuning-question.html

 

[Killa_dsm]

you have a pretty small injector, I woluldnt use smaller then an m10 (12gph) on a 50dy.

Ok I will keep that in mind. I took 420a-t's advice and decided to run more methanol in my mix, but have not logged a run yet. But I did one hard pull with more meth and the knock some has not moved, but I still need to log a run to be sure. If I still see knock and if my log doesn't look better I plan to run the bigger 12gph nozzle to see if it changes anything.

Scottsee what size nozzle are you running with your setup and how much boost. And what % mix?

And 2gGSX I think those are normal? But I will look into it. Can someone verify? My log was done on a palm logger not dsmlink if that makes a difference.

Thanks

 

[turboglenn]

Are you sure the meth is activating and working properly? Whrere do you have the elbow added. I've never ran a "real" meth kit, but from all the logs i've seen on here it seems as though you're not running enough or it's not working right, because i've seen it do miraculous things on logs on here and that's why it's next on my mods list to let me fully utilize my setup 100% of the time. And some cams of course.


Maybe try upping the pressure on your pump (have you messed with the pressure adjust at all on the meth pump?) and/or go to the m12 nozzle or the largest one you have and see if it makes a difference. if all knock goes away adn you get good timing then i would back down teh nozzle size or pressure untill you find a balance between using more meth than is needed to do the job, and where it is that knock starts to come back

 

[2gGSX]

And 2gGSX I think those are normal? But I will look into it. Can someone verify? My log was done on a palm logger not dsmlink if that makes a difference.

Every other log I've seen from people use airflow (lbs/min). It could just be a labeling error.

Have you checked the timing yet?

 

[Killa_dsm]

Are you sure the meth is activating and working properly? Whrere do you have the elbow added. I've never ran a "real" meth kit, but from all the logs i've seen on here it seems as though you're not running enough or it's not working right, because i've seen it do miraculous things on logs on here and that's why it's next on my mods list to let me fully utilize my setup 100% of the time. And some cams of course.


Maybe try upping the pressure on your pump (have you messed with the pressure adjust at all on the meth pump?) and/or go to the m12 nozzle or the largest one you have and see if it makes a difference. if all knock goes away adn you get good timing then i would back down teh nozzle size or pressure untill you find a balance between using more meth than is needed to do the job, and where it is that knock starts to come back

Yeah, thats the reason I was worried about my meth kit. Seeing everyone's else's results, then looking at mine I knew something was wrong. And yes, I am sure the meth kit is spraying. But the other day I put the biggest nozzle that was supplied in the kit (12gph) as scottsee suggested in and now my logs look a lot better.

It looked as if my knock was gone and the timing was up to 14degree's. Do you suggest I keep tunning it to 16degree's? or is 14degree's just fine?

I also found a leak by the pump and fixed that yesterday. I will try to get a log on the weekend if I can.

 

[Killa_dsm]

Just to clarify, is Hz supposed to be Airflow (lbs/min)?

I just thought about it and yes its suppose to be Airflow, I miss labeled it.

 

[2gGSX]

Unless your chip has the timing map tuned, it should be hitting 16 degrees peak timing with your airflow (assuming the SAFC isn't pulling massive airflow reading). The fact that it peaks at 14 means you're still knocking, unfortunately.

Have you checked base timing yet?

 

[turboglenn]

Sounds like you're back on right track! 2Ggsx seems to know a bit about the factory ECU adn how much timing it want's to deliver at your airflow, but ultimately you'd shoot for highest timing that the ECU and knock will allow for. if 2gGSX says that 16 is the peak of your airflow range, shoot for that. Sometimes too rich of a condition will cause some problems with detonation and the DSM knock sensor, so keep that in mind as well, i've heard that much richer than 10:1 and they start to pull timing, but I have never witnessed this for myself

 

[2gGSX]

A local ran 550's without any compensation on his SAFC and was getting massive amounts of rich knock, so I can attest that it does exist. Front O2 voltages of ~.96V on a 2g in my experience is right around factory tune.

Adding meth into the equation does change things a bit. Even without a wide band (get one BTW), you can afford to try pulling *some* fuel out to see if it has any effect.

Still though, check your base timing.

 

[Killa_dsm]

2gGSX: I read the link you posted for me but my question is, I don't have a 1g CAS so would I still be able to adjust my base timing?

And I need to do another log but won't be able to do it for about another week. I'm pretty sure my chip was programed to peak at 16degree's but I might be wrong and this is on 91 octane if that makes a difference.

And thanks for the help Tom and turboglenn.

 

[Jst4Cyl]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/269937-base-timing.html

and for a little more in depth check this one out http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/266535-base-timing.html

 

[2gGSX]

I think I mis-phrased myself--I meant check to see if you skipped teeth or anything like that. Unfortunately, with the 2g CAS, you aren't able to change anything without something that can control timing adjustments.

 

[Killa_dsm]

I think I mis-phrased myself--I meant check to see if you skipped teeth or anything like that. Unfortunately, with the 2g CAS, you aren't able to change anything without something that can control timing adjustments.

Alright that makes more sense. I dont really have a place to work on my car right now so I will check that next weekend. And also I have a couple problems I have to fix before I can do anymore kind of tuning. I'm having sputtering problems when I hit full boost at around 3.5k to 5k (its not fuel cut). I'm thinking its my ignition so I am going to figure that out, and also my Greddy Type-S is leaking fluttering under full boost of 23psi. So I have to solve those two problems first.

Then I will do another log after checking my timing and post up here.

 

[spyderturbo007]

According to the log, you're pushing 2.90g/rev of air at 6784rpm. According to the 2g ECU timing map, you should be getting:

3500rpm = 4 degrees
4000rpm = 7 degrees
4500rpm = 9 degrees
5000rpm = 13 degrees
5500rpm = 16 degrees
6000rpm = 16 degrees

So, you are definately knocking. At redline you are loosing 4 degrees of timing, which is about 12 counts of knock. Provided you didn't lose any timing because of your IAT or coolant temp.

Keep in mind, that I see in your profile that you have a chipped ECU, so your maps may be different than the stock maps when it comes to timing. Sometimes they keep the same timing maps and just change the target AFR, but you are best off contacting the person that created your chip. They would be able to tell you exactly what your timing targets should be.

 

[Killa_dsm]

According to the log, you're pushing 2.90g/rev of air at 6784rpm. According to the 2g ECU timing map, you should be getting:

Wow thats some great info thanks Nathan. Can I ask how you converted my airflow into g/rev?

And yes, if I remember correctly he kept the timing to 16*, but changed my target afr. I also have another richer chip that I could put in there to see if it helps. When I first got the ecu/chip the tune on the first chip was rich at idle and cruise so I had him lean it out. Not sure if he also leaned out the closed loop setting. I should check that out as well.

I want to get out and do another log with my larger 12gph meth nozzles but the weather is really bad and I don't have the cable that hooks to my computer, to download my logs.

Thanks for your impute

 

[scottsee]

Killa, I use whatever I can get my hands on. Sometimes I just put in a gallon of that -20deg washer fluid. It's prety much 40/60 mix or somthing like that. I've tried doing the Distilled water and yellow heat bottles to mix my own combination of Meth/h20 but it was a hassle. I havn't been using it sence I turned my boost down to 10psi about a year ago. I have a Dsmlink log of on my E316g with and without meth (-20 deg fluid) on my M7 if you want to see it.. It's dosen't help much, thats why with a 50dy I'd never go smaller then an M10.

 

[spyderturbo007]

Wow thats some great info thanks Nathan. Can I ask how you converted my airflow into g/rev?

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, but I've been swamped at work for the past couple of months. I just don't have the time to get on here very often.

Anyway, to convert to g/rev you'll have to take your airflow and any one of the rpm points. I normally choose one that correlates with the 2g timing tables, so I know what map I'm on at that point in time. Multiply the lb/min airflow reading by 453.6 to get grams of airflow. Then just divide that number by the rpm value at the point you chose.

For example, let's use the point I picked in my post above. At 6784rpm your airflow reading was 43.51lbs/min, so the equation would be....

(43.51 * 453.6) / 6784 = 2.909g/rev

And yes, if I remember correctly he kept the timing to 16*, but changed my target afr. I also have another richer chip that I could put in there to see if it helps.

That might be a good idea, since it's an easy swap. Or if you have a SAFC, you could add a couple percent back with that. Do you know what your new target AFR was? Jeff normally uses 11:1, but it could be different with yours.

When I first got the ecu/chip the tune on the first chip was rich at idle and cruise so I had him lean it out. Not sure if he also leaned out the closed loop setting. I should check that out as well.

Just for future reference, closed loop = idle / cruise and WOT = open loop. Maybe you just said it backwards, but I wanted to clarify for anyone reading.

I want to get out and do another log with my larger 12gph meth nozzles but the weather is really bad and I don't have the cable that hooks to my computer, to download my logs.

Thanks for your impute

You should be able to use the serial cable that you have hooked up to the OBD-II cable in your car. Unless, of course, your PC donesn't have a serial port. If so, you should be able to get a USB sync cable on ebay, or even a serial to USB adapter.

Personally, I wouldn't use the adapter unless you can't find a USB sync cable. They seem to be hit or miss....Some work and some don't.

 

[Killa_dsm]

Thanks for the great info spyder. The target afr is set at 10.5:1, and thanks for clarifying close loop and open loop, I get them mixed up a lot!

Just a update for you guys. I was finally able to do some more logs. I decided to run pure meth (heet bottles) instead of mixing it with water. I felt that I wouldn't need the water since I have a big fmic to cool the air and need the extra octane to help the piss water 91 we have here. These are both at about 22 to 23psi, my ebc isn't that consistent.

First log with a AFC zero'd out at HIGH setting. As you can see timing was peaking at 13* which is about 9 counts of knock correct?

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And here is another run. After looking at the AFC I decided to add a little more fuel.
4500rpm +1
5000rpm and up +2
These are the results, and if I remember correctly in this log the boost was slightly lower then my first log.

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Tell me what you think, I was planning maybe getting a M14 nozzle if I plan to run straight meth.

 

[turboglenn]

It looks like you're on the right track to be getting your timing back that well from only a few % in a few areas! What are you running now for meth mixture? I was running blue juice (which i found out today that what i had been running was only 30% meth 70% water) I dumped 2 bottle of heat into the 2qt tank when there was only a 1/4th of a tank of blue juice in there and as soon as the higher meth mix worked it's way through my knock went completely away.

41lbs/min looks rather nice too, that's a good bit of air!

 

[Black95TSIawd]

41lbs/min is not significant, unless your 2g head is stock and stock intake/throttle body. Meth injection is like racegas. Turn the boost up. 23psi on a fifty trim is low for a pump/meth tune.