Sweetest exhuast I've ever seen!

[swordfish]

The problem people have with that manifold is not runner diameters or collector diameter. Everybody here knows a larger diameter pipe or runner has a higher flow rate at the same pressure drop. Its the fact that individual cylinders are not separated from each other, there's no protection against back flow into a cylinder thats in the process of opening. This being much more important than any minor head loss differences between 2 fairly close sized runners. I've not seen on ANY serious car (WRC, NASCAR, NHRA) have a manifold that looked anything like a log. All were individual runner designs.

For instance I ran an otherwise stock DSM manifold with the flow divider removed. The spool up went from 3000 rpm to 4500 rpm on a 14b. That manifold made driving miserable. I had no exhaust leaks or anything else. Replacing it with a properly ported exhaust manifold brought my spool back down to 3000 rpm. That log manifold looks like it has no provision for keeping individual cylinders from interfering with each other. I'm not sure a flow bench accurately mimics this. Please post a dyno run, before and after, between that log manifold against even a well ported stocker, or that Turbonetics individual cast manifold, that would be a scientific comparison that would be credible.

Gene

Look I'm not here to argue that the log is the best thing since pants with pockets. I simply stated that power can be made with it. If you want empirical dyno data, you spend the money and time. Dont ask me to do it because you would like to prove me wrong.

Now, if want to look at a simpe log vs what is considered a nice nearly equal length manifold, then take a look at Geoff's site (www.full-race.com). He is pretty much the premier build for equal length (nearly) manifolds for some of the fastest honda guys out there. Ballard, Laskey, Tran, Andrew... the list goes on. They took their simple log and dynoed it back to back against their non AC pro street manifold and the log out spooled it. Not by much, but slightly. Now on the other hand the equal length manifold made 68 more whp on the big end. But thats not the arguement here for I never stated that a log would make more power than a properly build manifold.

Again, I say logs arent the best. But if they didnt somewhat work, no one would use them. As it stands today, Gail Banks uses them on their Gas setups, Lingenfelter uses them.... pretty much everyone uses them. Why? Not because they make the most power or flow the best. They use them because they are affordable, easy to make, they work (again, not saying they are the best) and they dont break. They are simple.

So. Why does Lewis have a log on his car? He didnt have a stock mitsu manifold. This log is cheaper. He didnt have a mitsu flanged turbo. He didnt want to spend $750 on a Shearer manifold or $1100 on a full-race. He is working within his budget. He is not WRC, or IRL, or Brent Rau. He doesnt have a sponsor or a vault full of cash in his back yard. He is a guy with a little extra cash to spend on his car. So that pretty much sums it up.

jeff

 

[swordfish]

I'll even make it easy for you. Here is the link to the dyno sheets and videos. There, no one has to do any research on their own or spend any money. Geoff has done it for us. Happy?

Geoff's log vs equal length results

jeff

 

[lewroe59]

So the manifold arguement has been settled....log=spool and midrange, equal length= top end.

and the pipe arguement has been shot down....same amount of bends.

and the muffler is starting to make sense to a few of you.

7 pages of dogging the system that is dynolessly proving everyone wrong.

I might have to start selling these things. :laugh:

 

[pboglio]

I'll even make it easy for you. Here is the link to the dyno sheets and videos. There, no one has to do any research on their own or spend any money. Geoff has done it for us. Happy?

Geoff's log vs equal length results

jeff

I had typed out a whole rebuttal than I read your response. Finally, a voice of reason arises. Thank you. I read that website a couple months back, wish I had remembered that before I posted. I still think an individual runner CAST manifold is the fastest turbo spooler, but thats my opinion.

Anybody think a stock Mitsu exhaust manifold is a log manifold better have their eyes examined. I think a further separation of the runners in the collector might gain a bit more, but its nowhere near a log, nowhere. Cheers.

 

[JDMFirstGen]

Sweat, its people with inginuity(or however you spell it) like you guys who give DSM's a great name, and F@#k all you ney sayers for bashing them. At least they have the balls to make somthing better and try somthing new, if it didn't work, keep trying, thats how shit gets invented, duh. I really would like to hear what it sounds like, probably pretty rowdy!

Cool Sean

PS- I will just stick with my thermal... for now

 

[pboglio]

lewroe59,

I'm going to say this and then just let it lie. You guys first claimed some big horsepower increase from that AT muffler due to it having less pressure drop or magical properties imparted from GOD or something. Then when I stated something about wave tuning or the lack there of, BOOM, the next post you guys are talking about scavenging. Cmon on now, you guys pulled that crap right of my post. My later post states that the AT website mentions not a wit about scavenging. When I got over the DAZZLING computer generated muffler model, I saw what you guys were trying to tell me, that indeed it DID have a straight thru core. I stand corrected and admitted it. But don't insult everybody and tell us its some great invention. Its a straight thru core with a twist, nothing more. That website would have the uneducated believe that swirling, mixing, or whatever will create a "VACUUM" and "JET ENGINE" effect, their words not mine. Give me a break.
Go to BURNS STAINLESS and you'll see no mention of this kinda crap, just sound engineering.

By the way, did you not SEE that website. The log manifold is down what? 60+ wheel horsepower. The area your trying to brag about is where your manifold just got its ass kicked. Just what everybody was trying to tell you, although I stressed spool up. See, I don't need to run to some DSM vendor or "Wiseman" to prove my point or save my ass in an arguement. I've got the best weapon, COMMON SENSE. You had to go running to some other message board for MORAL support. There is not ONE, not ONE aspect of that exhaust system I would adopt on a race car. I can't figure you guys out, worry about cutting off 2/3 of an exhaust system to drop maybe 2 psi in backpressure, and then give up at least 50 h.p. due to a crap manifold.

 

[bigemrich]

The fact of underhood heat shouldn't necessarily be focused around the bends or the dissapation of heat etc. What about the fact that the stock system runs underneath the car where cold air has the chance to cool it. With this setup, there is very little air, if any, to actually cool the pipes while they are leaving. That heat will be stagnant in the engine bay, and the heat will flow to the parts that are less cool, ie Hoses, other metal objects, intake, ic piping. In the end, a standard exhaust system will cool by dissapating into the air flowing under the car. This system seems to only heat the engine bay.
Just something I noticed.

--Kyle

 

[turbowop]

hey turbowop what are you trying to say..make some sense then get back to me.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Get back to you?! What I wrote made complete sense, although, you may lack the brain capacity to understand it.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[blitz43]

The fact of underhood heat shouldn't necessarily be focused around the bends or the dissapation of heat etc. What about the fact that the stock system runs underneath the car where cold air has the chance to cool it. With this setup, there is very little air, if any, to actually cool the pipes while they are leaving. That heat will be stagnant in the engine bay, and the heat will flow to the parts that are less cool, ie Hoses, other metal objects, intake, ic piping. In the end, a standard exhaust system will cool by dissapating into the air flowing under the car. This system seems to only heat the engine bay.
Just something I noticed.

--Kyle

good point

how u gonna get rid of the excess heat build up??

cut a hole in ure hood and put a grill mesh on it like the evo????

 

[defrag010]

air in the engine bay isn't going to be totally stagnant. Air has to pass through the radiator to cool it.

 

[pboglio]

You guys are dumping exhaust gas into 1) a high pressure area (brilliant) 2) right in front of the turbocharger (I'm sure the engine loves breathing a hot gas that has very little oxygen in it) Only you guys would go on a message board and actually BRAG about your screwed up design. Do me a favor, when you guys get around to graduating from college, don't get into designing buildings or bridges, please.

 

[FFgeoff]

I am a mechanical engineer, and own Full Race. There are a total of 6 degreed mechanical engineers employed here, and we take great pride in designing what we feel to be ideal turbo systems. The majority of the pro import turbo cars at the big name races are using our designs, from the 7.89 second street tired MSP supra to the 8.4 second quakerstate/jotech civic running our parts. So long story short we like to make big power, quickly. BTW THANKS for the kind words guys, im glad you appreciate our hard work

FWIW the low end gains that are had by using a log are negligible, about 6 horsepower at most. I know i would NEVER use a log on any application. The stock cast manifold is better (only slightly better, but still better).

if you guys have any specific questions feel free to ask. i dont get on here too often, but id be happy to help answer any good questions. please dont waste our time and say that our manifolds are too expensive, that all tubulars crack or anything else, i get too much of that over at h-t. im just here to help with the scientific end of things...

___________________________________________________________________


recently, a completely independant test was done on an SR20. here is the info:

http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthr...05&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1


We (Myself and Mattback) built a car for a customer that wanted 500whp. Specs are as follows:

CP Pistons 9.0:1 CR
Stock Rods w/ ARP rod bolts
ARP Headstuds
Greddy Headgasket
HKS 264 Step 2's
RAS
Greddy valvesprings
Greddy Intake Manifold
Garrett GT3040R Turbo
ROM tune - Z32 MAF, 96# injectors
JGS Tools Log Manifold
HKS Intercooler

When we took it to the dyno for tuning all we could get out of the car at the wastegate pressure of 12.8 psi (0.9 kg/cm^2) was 300whp. I tried different AFR's and timing values but they yeilded no change. The setup simply would not make more than 300whp @ 12.8 psi. This was a problem becasue I knew that we werent going to get to 500whp without running stupid boost...which i didnt want to do. So after alot of head scratching and a few beers to help cope with the disappointment Matt and I compiled a list of everything that was different between this car and my car when it was running a nearly identical setup and making 340hp @ 10 psi.

This is what we came up with:

1) Log manifold vs. Full Race manifold.

2) ROM tune with MAF vs. Haltech on MAP.

At which point we looked across the garage to my car which is currently out of commission and decided we needed to try swapping manifolds. A call to the customer to discuss the situation...and he agreed it was the correct course of action. So the test was on!!

Matt and I worked dilligently friday night after work to get the manifold swapped over. We used my old downpipe and hot pipe of my car. These pieces were nearly identical to the downpipe and hotpipe that were on with the log...just slightly different fitments. We got it up and running, celebrated at Hooters for a late dinner...then headed off to the dyno on saturday morning. I was expeciting to see gains but we were unsure of how much. On satuday morning we ran the car at wastegate pressure (12.8 psi) and after a bit of tuning to get the new setup dialed in we saw the following gains:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

All i can say is WOW...60whp and 35ft-lbs. Spoolup was almost identical with the Full Race hitting maybe 100 rpm later. I was completely floored by the results of this test. I was expecting 30-40hp maybe...but 60hp. I was totally shocked.

I think this also disproves the myth that MAF sensors are a restriction. this car made exactly what my setup made at 12 psi with a MAP sensor based system.

The truth of the matter is the flow properties of the LOG manifold are terrible. The flow from 1,2 and 3,4 directly oppose each other then are forced to do a hard 90 deg turn to enter the turbine housing. A basic understanding of fluid dynamics will tell you this is terrible for flow. The smooth transistions of the full race manifold make all the difference allowing the car to make more power even during spoolup!!

Thumbs up to the guys at Full Race for making such a quality product!!

Oh...and the car did 507whp @ 25 psi later that day!!

__________________________________


hope this helps clear up any misconceptions.

 

[ljasonl]

There is not ONE, not ONE aspect of that exhaust system I would adopt on a race car.

...The car is not a race car....

 

[kobykris]

I hope you realize that is going to

A.) make your intake temps insane
B.) hit the radiator
C.) melt the radiator
D.) overheat your car from one of the following (lack of radiator fan, crack in radiator from the POS exhaust hitting it, ect....)


###

 

[defrag010]

I hope you realize that is going to

A.) make your intake temps insane
B.) hit the radiator
C.) melt the radiator
D.) overheat your car from one of the following (lack of radiator fan, crack in radiator from the POS exhaust hitting it, ect....)

###

how can you be certain? have you seen this exact setup on the same kind of car before? Chances are, no.

A) might make them a little higher, but that's what an intercooler is for
B) It is nowhere close to the radiator. I've seen the system in person, and the turbo is closer to the radiator than the exhaust pipe.
C) It can't melt the radiator if it isn't close to it.
D) He's putting a pusher fan on the frontside of the radiator. How do you know it will overheat?

 

[bigemrich]

air in the engine bay isn't going to be totally stagnant. Air has to pass through the radiator to cool it.

First of all, I guarantee that the airflow into the engine bay is a fraction of what it is under the car. Also, the air coming out of the radiator is hot too. Grant it that air also has to leave the engine bay meaning there is some flow, it is heated as well, probably not the best solution to cool the engine bay. All I am trying to say is bottom line, the engine bay will be heated considerably using this setup. And from where the exhaust runs, it looks like all that heat will be directed right into the incoming air (ie through the intercooler piping, turbo etc.)
Seems like alot of trouble for questionable results

--Kyle

 

[pboglio]

...The car is not a race car....

Oh I agree on that, definitely no race car. Its amazing, truely amazing that nobody gives credit to the DSM engine design. Despite DSM hackers doing ridiculously stupid mods to it, the DSM engine is STILL able to pump out huge horsepower.

You guys posted an odd but interesting looking exhaust design with no thought into actual improvement in design, just for looks and shock value and you seriously wanted people to fawn over it. You guys are Posers, not innovators, don't kid yourselves. If you guys came up with some cool looking header that improved scavenging or something, I would have been ASKING you guys questions. A real racer or designer would have followed function first, then added a little flare for the bling factor. You guys wanted shock value, and guess what? You guys got a little more than you bargained for and had to run to your other DSM forum for comfort. Saying a guy can't afford a real turbo manifold after dropping GOD knows how much on a freaking huge turbo sounds like a back peddle if I ever heard one. Looks like $5,000 plus in mods, c'mon now, please.

This is not the same as posting your pics on your profile site, I'd never make a comment on somebody else's setup in that situation.

 

[Brandon92DSM]

Look just dont start a fire in your engine bay and ill be happy. Definitley pushing "streetable" to new limits.

 

[defrag010]

You guys got a little more than you bargained for and had to run to your other DSM forum for comfort. Saying a guy can't afford a real turbo manifold after dropping GOD knows how much on a freaking huge turbo sounds like a back peddle if I ever heard one. Looks like $5,000 plus in mods, c'mon now, please.

That's just it, you don't know how much he paid for all of it. I can tell you it was a minute fraction of that 5000$ you quoted.

And we're not running to our local DSM forum for help. The same thing was posted on our local forum before it was posted here, and everyone is ridiculing the way tuners members have such a bad attitude towards everything. DSMtuners.com is slowly gaining status of "a bunch of pricks, with just a few smart people on there", and "a bunch of lemmings". to practically everyone on the internet.
It's funny... a local member of our board, who happens to drive a fast ass gsx, said (quote)
"There is a reason there are about 10 fast DSM's at the big events and about 300 fast Honda's. DSMer's for the most part are stuck in their mindset. Nobody wants to try anything new save the few innovators that are out there. I mostly do not like being associated with the DSM crowd due to this fact. "

I couldn't agree more with that quote. I mean sure lewis's setup isn't the best ever, but for the amount of money he paid for it (damn good deal), is it so hard to say "good job" ? He could be a total ricer and put that big turbo on without supporting mods, but he's not.

 

[Jehu]

You will be dissipate more heat into the material(pipe). Ever held a torch to a nail vs a 3 foot stick of pipe? Granted, there is more surface area, but that doesn't mean more of the heat is reaching the engine bay. Hmmm...

Uh, no. How is what you suggested even analogous? The heat gets from the exhaust to the surrounding. At the type of temperatures we're talking about, radiation will be the primary form of heat transfer. A larger surface area will have the same flux i.e. transmit more energy at the same temperature. It's almost like mass flow. Just because airflow is slower in a 3" pipe compared to a 2" pipe doesn't mean that the mass flow can't be the same.

It's basic thermo...there's really nothing ambiguous here at all.

And come on all you "innovators". I have nothing against a new design, as long as it makes engineering sense. But stupid is as stupid does. What if I have a turbo that dumped directly into the engine bay, no downpipe? Am I to be applauded for trying something new or shot down for being stupid? There are some things that are just not worth doing, no matter how open minded you are, and this is one of them.

BTW, I have an exhaust cutout on my downpipe, right at the first bend. Isn't THAT less of a restriction? 1 ft of STRAIGHT 2.5" pipe right after the O2. Have I not gained all the benefits of having low low pressure drop w/o any of the downsides of a convoluted engine bay exhaust system? Sure it might be louder, but that's about it. Moral of the story, different is not always good.

 

[bigemrich]

DSMer's for the most part are stuck in their mindset. Nobody wants to try anything new save the few innovators that are out there. II couldn't agree more with that quote.
I mean sure lewis's setup isn't the best ever, but for the amount of money he paid for it (damn good deal), is it so hard to say "good job" ? He could be a total ricer and put that big turbo on without supporting mods, but he's not.

OK, first of all, why should we fix something if it isn't broken. Standard exhaust routing has been tried and tested time and time again. If something comes along that is for the better, than I am all for it. However, I am yet to see anything that PROVES this setup will out perform anything, while I have seen one post that at least proves the inadequecies of flow in the log manifold.
You also say his setup isn't the best ever and such, but we should say good job, you saved money etc. No one is here to hold anyones hand. He made this thread titled "Sweetest Exhaust I've Ever Seen". People on this board didnt' seem to agree, and wanted proof as to why it is SOOOO sweet. But apparently, this is too much to ask. Was it really expected everyone would be like WOW, cool. This is a performance based site, and until this exhaust is proven to postively effect performance, there most likely won't be a whole lot of sympathy
Dont get me wrong, I think it is cool when people fabricate their own parts and whatnot, but unfortunately it can't be expected that everyone will approve.

--Kyle

 

[krisj144]

I've been following this thread since it's beginning and have held back till now. The title says it all folks. This guy thinks he's got a sweet _looking_ exhaust and he has let that obviously cloud his judgement. I think everyone has done a good job of pointing out that he has selected some pretty bad parts for his car.

I know it's tough lewroe, you thought you had a good idea and put some extra time into making a one of a kind part and now you've got a host of people with constructive criticism. Perhaps that criticism is a little too harsh for you, but your comments haven't really demonstrated that you clearly thought about the flaws of this system before diving into it. These guys are really trying to help and if you put aside the insults hopefully you'll be able to improve the setup. So if you want a short exhaust that uses this muffler, maybe do as they suggest and either get an alternator relocation bracket and route it through the driver's side, or flip the turbo if possible like the mirage guy did.

As far as DSM owners being lemmings and Honda guys portrayed as innovators, that not a universal fact. There's nothing wrong with going with proven results and when you've got 14 years of knowledgeable folks playing with dsm's, why reinvent the wheel if you're looking for simple, reliable, hp on a street car? I'll give respect to the fabricators that are coming out with new parts, but it's not smart to tinker with something you don't fully understand and knowing your own limits is important. This guy (lewroe) seems to have overstepped his and he'll learn his lesson, even if it takes a while.

 

[Morphius]

Uh, no. How is what you suggested even analogous? The heat gets from the exhaust to the surrounding. At the type of temperatures we're talking about, radiation will be the primary form of heat transfer. A larger surface area will have the same flux i.e. transmit more energy at the same temperature. It's almost like mass flow. Just because airflow is slower in a 3" pipe compared to a 2" pipe doesn't mean that the mass flow can't be the same.

It's basic thermo...there's really nothing ambiguous here at all.

It's a mute point to sit and argue this until someone straps a thermocouple to a stock DSM downpipe and then a larger system (2 1/2" or 3") to see what the real Delta is. Afterall, the temperature is the largerst contributer (power of 4 versus power of 2 for area).

 

[anconover]

if you think its just tooners critizing your exhaust, why not try NABR? see what they have to say. If talk werent down, youd have very few if anyone agreeing with the setup. Just how its going to be.

 

[LandoAWD]

It's funny... a local member of our board, who happens to drive a fast ass gsx, said (quote)
"There is a reason there are about 10 fast DSM's at the big events and about 300 fast Honda's. DSMer's for the most part are stuck in their mindset. Nobody wants to try anything new save the few innovators that are out there. I mostly do not like being associated with the DSM crowd due to this fact. "

We welcome innovation with PROOF, not a moon muffler and outrageous unfounded claims.