status of pina motorsports......

[white92talontsi]

so your saying putting something bigger then a pte 50 trim is going to be a realistic street car it barley fits as it is let alone when it starts to spool.
i know the PTE will put out 28 psi no problem and it starts to spool at 3200 rpm anything bigger would be rediculous because it probably would'nt spool till 3600 rpm. not very ideal in my eyes. now if your talking about a street racer where ever you go your giving it hell and not dd'ing it then yah bigger is obviously better. there is a fine line there just depends on how you plan on driving the car. If you plan to race it or if you plan to drive it daily and smoke a honda or bmw every now and then. If i wanted to see how much hp i could get out of this car i would put a bigger turbo on it . but im not the 50 trim is plenty for my goals for this car.

Ever been in a DSM or an Evo with a 2.3 or a 2.4 and a 3586 in a twin scroll T4 Manifold? Full spool diggin at 44-4500 RPM and 600+whp capable on the right fuel. Daily drives great!

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Hehe spools the same as my hx40 on a 2.0

 

[white92talontsi]

Hehe spools the same as my hx40 on a 2.0

Exactly. I personally would not run a turbo smaller than a 35r in my car. Anytime you can hit full spool before 5250 rpm your gonna make quite a bit of torque.

I just did a Evo with a 2.4LR on a twin scroll 6265 and it again is at full tilt at 4500rpm surpassing 600whp on pump gas. Car is a blast to drive on the street.

It is amazing how times have changed.

Here is another 2.3 I built With a 6766. You think 6766 you think laggy but check out the boost curve on it
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...4978050.145782.125559120806856&type=1&theater

 

[Archer Fabrications]

What shop do you work for?

 

[white92talontsi]

What shop do you work for?

Spec-Ops Motorsports In Fayetteville, N.C.

 

[phunny]

so your saying putting something bigger then a pte 50 trim is going to be a realistic street car it barley fits as it is let alone when it starts to spool.
i know the PTE will put out 28 psi no problem and it starts to spool at 3200 rpm anything bigger would be rediculous because it probably would'nt spool till 3600 rpm. not very ideal in my eyes. now if your talking about a street racer where ever you go your giving it hell and not dd'ing it then yah bigger is obviously better. there is a fine line there just depends on how you plan on driving the car. If you plan to race it or if you plan to drive it daily and smoke a honda or bmw every now and then. If i wanted to see how much hp i could get out of this car i would put a bigger turbo on it . but im not the 50 trim is plenty for my goals for this car.

Yes I am and it's a fact.

 

[pimpin81]

well im glad to here that you guys have the money to make a 600 whp car streetable, however i do not. the amout of money to make that car street able must be up there pretty damn high, not realistic to me in any way. and besides you both have blocks with forged pistons im sure your possibilities are endless but for the average person who doesnt put 10k into there eclipse talon or laser it is not very realistic, its a damn race car. More power to you guys i truly am jealous

 

[Archer Fabrications]

What about dexter holland who ran a 10.3 with an hx40 on a stock bottom? It's been done, holsets are cheeeeeeaapppp drain setup is like 100 bucks, haul ass and dont require forged bottom end. The bolt on housing for te holsets (35 or 40) make them very streetablr. The hx35 is going to be the bes street turbo i think cause it will spool jus where you want it and 500 ho capable. Doesnt take thousands of dollars to take a 500hp setup

 

[LucasEnglish]

Man sorry to here your neg thoughts. I wish I could tune them all but with racing and family it cant always happen, but I do know I will not run over 25-26psi on pump gas. To many variables that are out of my control to put that kinda of a tune on customer car.

I find most of the time on straight pump much over 25psi your timing get so low you are not really not making much extra hp. If you are street tuning 2nd and 3rd gear you can also get away with more but 7k in 4th it will be knocking. Low timing and high boost can cause high pound per min # but not real hp. would be cool to see what it does on our dyno now VS our safe 24psi tune.

Also we tune 90% of our 4G63 car right at a 12.0 unless its a road course car. I have yet to see a motor failure or knock from that AF I find I get more knock real or not on ECM link in the low 11st high 10s anyway.

Looked at your dyno sheet looks like we picked up almost 40hp from the 1st pull we made.

Our goal here is to make things safe as we can and still be fun. Us running 30psi on pump is not a good way of doing that. I am glad its working out for you and sorry we would not push the limits like you are.


Your car is straight pump? no meth injection?

I have been tuning ECM link since the day it came out. We tuned one of the 1st bata SD cars over 3 years ago. I started in DSM's in 2000 so I know S-AFC, MAFT, MAFT PRO, hacked MAF, ETC but ECM link V3 is the only way these days. All of our race cars are on AEM EMS which is over kill for most DSM's.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Hey lucas. I think aaron was in a rush to get me out. Thats how i felt. I'm running no meth on straight 94, granted thats two whole more octane points than i was tuned with you guys. But my biggest issue was that my timing table wasnt changed hardly at all, and my global and dead times were off giving me inacurate VE numbers. Thats honestly the only reason i came to you guys was to get that sorted out, but since i did such a good job with it's drivibility on my own he didn't change it and told me te VE accuracy didn't really matter.
Well it throws off my boost est and makes me run 108 VE cells.

30psi 60lb a min daily still low timing that i havent gotten figured out, link is estimating. 575 but we all know how inaccurate that can be.


Anyway, lucas you had a meeting that day so no hard feelings. Since i left the shop i replaced the things aaron recommended but didn't have any success raising the timing to a stock 2g retarded map.
Maybe i could shoot you a log or something.

ill just post it here, and for refrence the 30psi log has been flattened on the AFRS consistently now.

the 26 psi one is actually more recent but im back up at 30 now.

 

[white92talontsi]

Hey lucas. I think aaron was in a rush to get me out. Thats how i felt. I'm running no meth on straight 94, granted thats two whole more octane points than i was tuned with you guys. But my biggest issue was that my timing table wasnt changed hardly at all, and my global and dead times were off giving me inacurate VE numbers. Thats honestly the only reason i came to you guys was to get that sorted out, but since i did such a good job with it's drivibility on my own he didn't change it and told me te VE accuracy didn't really matter.
Well it throws off my boost est and makes me run 108 VE cells.

30psi 60lb a min daily still low timing that i havent gotten figured out, link is estimating. 575 but we all know how inaccurate that can be.


Anyway, lucas you had a meeting that day so no hard feelings. Since i left the shop i replaced the things aaron recommended but didn't have any success raising the timing to a stock 2g retarded map.
Maybe i could shoot you a log or something.

ill just post it here, and for refrence the 30psi log has been flattened on the AFRS consistently now.

the 26 psi one is actually more recent but im back up at 30 now.

In reality most people get too attatched to the VE values or what not. If the car is boost leak free then despite what the boostest shows or the VE table shows it will run the A/F Ratio desired.

What does it matter what the VE shows or Boost Est? The desired A/F ratio is more important.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Because thats not a calibrated tune. It's easy to get your afrs where you want, but doing it correctly is another thing, I'd like my airflow numbers to be accurate and ve numbers to accurately represent the engines actual VE (which is not usually over 98. And my timing to not peak at 2.2* at 7k and not reach -6.6 on spool at 4k sadly all else results in knock. Base timing verified 5* maybe I'm just picky but thats what I'd expect when you pay good money.

 

[white92talontsi]

Because thats not a calibrated tune. It's easy to get your afrs where you want, but doing it correctly is another thing, I'd like my airflow numbers to be accurate. And my timing to not peak at 2.2* at 7k and not reach -6.6 on spool at 4k sadly all else results in knock. Base timing verified 5* maybe I'm just picky but thats what I'd expect when you pay good money.

What I am saying is your airflow numbers being accurate gains you what?

-6 on spool sounds about right on pump gas honestly for the turbo that you are running. As far as timing peaking at 2.2 degrees out the top have you verified that the map is set to run only 2.2 degrees on top end?

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Yeah it marches the table thats not the problem, the problem is soon as i change anything higher it knocks. I have yet to find a reasonable timing map that works with no knock. Evo8 mod 1, no. 2g,no, peoples recommended maps have not worked either. Maybe it's my setup? Who knows. Bep .55 and stock intake manifold an. Pte 1000 could be screwing me over. I have bep t3 .70 and stm manifold infront of me.

 

[LucasEnglish]

I have known how to link since Jeffs car. The AF when it left here was safe at Wot and it drove good. Just because the AF est and boost est were off does not mean I cant tune.

No matter what 2150s on pump gas are not perfect.

I do make all my # match now days just incase someone puts a tune up it will look right.

Can English tune using ecmlink yet?

 

[LucasEnglish]

If people have problems with our tune we take care of it if they give us a chance. We have tune well over 1000 different cars and they drive good.

I would say the best thing about us is we build and tune so we can work through problems. That the AVG shop or E tuner cant see. We also have fuel pumps, plugs, wires, injectors, ECU, ETC all in stock to work though problems.

Phunny is a hatter on us which sucks. We did not build the car he bought Jeff did. Jeff built the car before he ever started working for us. I did do the tuning and I know I am better at V3 now then I was
then.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

my problem wast that it didn't drive good, it drove good when i brought it to you it drove good when i left only 40 whp more. my problem was that aaron hardly changed anything in the tune that i had brought him. i can post the log of me on the way down and on the way back to the shop and you can compare and tell me if you think what he did was worth the $300. there was 3 timing cells changed in the DA WOT area and then in the idle he changed everything to 15 thats IT. and leaned out the DA. granted he checked the timing mechanically before we started and regapped the plugs, id think that's standard though. i guess i went into it thinking that everything would match up and not be so timing retarded.

 

[4thStroke]

No hard feelings? It's funny how your tone changes once Lucas joins in.

You go from slamming his company and name to being one of the more understanding customers who post online. Let's step back for a second.

English is alright too but they aren't all they are cracked up to be.

English didnt do dick to my tune and i paid 300 ive been doing everything myself since then. They didnt try to even turn up my boost more than 22 psi resulting in my profile dyno numbers. Granted i had a few minor issues, but none significant enough to not try on a tune i paid good money for. Theres really no better way than to do it yourself. Im on 30 psi now and tuned everything myself.

If you go to english i hope you have better luck than me. Car has to be perfect.

They will not do an aggressive tune if your car is not perfect period.

In regards to whether or not they can tune ECMLink...

Well in my experience the answer is no then. All my idle,
and cruise conditions were tuned perfect by me upon arrival and i was expecting for them to rework everything since my global and dead time were off leaving me an over estamated boost est and VE( still have this problem but it runs well, just not accurate readings and has since been reworked 100% by me) the only thing i ended up paying 300 bucks for was a base timing check. 4 DA timing cells changed, and leaned the hell out on pump 92 from my 11.1:1 to 12:1 which aaron claimed he tunes all the pump gas evos to. Personally i did not get my moneys worth and did not trust the lean afrs he set me at.

The week before i was runnning 28psi on really retarded timing. But was not getting knock, and had good afrs.
i detuned it before i arrived thinking they would do a full do over so i put it to wastegate pressure. Mind you i lived 45
Mins north of seattle and this drive was 4 hrs one way with a 4AM wakeup. plus gas. They didnt do anything but 4 WOT pulls and then my car had to go Off the dyno for the next car.
Bullshit honestly....However i think their dsms run On link and not AEM.

They are also only going to do a good job tuning if THEY built your motor and know it through and through.

They HATE holsets, aaron slyly talked shit about them,
most likely because they are FP sponsored. But whatever still no reason to treat a tune differently.

Apparently they didn't like BC cams either. So basically. If they don't like your setup they will shaft you, if you spent all your money with them building your shit. They will give you a good tune. Honestly i think thats only the reason to keep The shop rep good. But it's not cool for all the DIY engine builders that have had many miles of high boost with no problems. It simply does not matter to them,
They didn't build it, they don't care how well its setup, They won't push your setup.

BC cams are garbage, it has been proven. The BEP housings don't work that well, either. The Holset itself is generally fine.

Once Lucas chimes in, you suddenly turn into this guy.

Hey lucas. I think aaron was in a rush to get me out. Thats how i felt. I'm running no meth on straight 94, granted thats two whole more octane points than i was tuned with you guys. But my biggest issue was that my timing table wasnt changed hardly at all, and my global and dead times were off giving me inacurate VE numbers. Thats honestly the only reason i came to you guys was to get that sorted out, but since i did such a good job with it's drivibility on my own he didn't change it and told me te VE accuracy didn't really matter.
Well it throws off my boost est and makes me run 108 VE cells.

30psi 60lb a min daily still low timing that i havent gotten figured out, link is estimating. 575 but we all know how inaccurate that can be.


Anyway, lucas you had a meeting that day so no hard feelings. Since i left the shop i replaced the things aaron recommended but didn't have any success raising the timing to a stock 2g retarded map.
Maybe i could shoot you a log or something.

ill just post it here, and for refrence the 30psi log has been flattened on the AFRS consistently now.

the 26 psi one is actually more recent but im back up at 30 now.

If Aaron changed a few more values for you, would you have been happy? Even if those numbers didn't amount to anything in the grand scheme? If you claim to be some sort of expert tuner and can get away with far more boost (and power ), why did you even bring the car down to them in the first place?

The Evo maps are for a stock sized turbo. You are running a bolt on 35R equivalent turbo. It will still take some tweaking to get the timing you should be running. Off boost timing will be ok, but the Evo map will pull timing a lot earlier than you will require since you are still out of boost once the stock turbo is coming on. You will need to adjust timing in the cells that correspond with your boost curve from when positive pressure comes in until redline. The boost curve of a stock turbo is completely different than yours, so the Evo map will not work in all conditions, save for the low load cells where not much damage can occur.

Did it ever cross your mind that you can't run much timing because you are in fact running 30psi?

It is not uncommon to have have cells higher than 100 in the VE table. Would you rather have a car that drives nicely and runs smooth with values that you can use as a benchmark, or a car that doesn't idle the greatest? What I have figured out the hard way, is that just because you think your numbers make sense, you must realize that on SD, the airflow is calculated. No matter what you think your airflow numbers are, who actually knows the accuracy of those numbers? Once you ditch that air meter, those numbers are better used as a benchmark than anything. Rule of thumb is 60lb/min equates to 600whp, right? You are off that estimate. Throw those numbers out the door, because I can guarantee you did not pick up another 210whp off of Aaron's tune. If you are trusting ECMLinks estimate (which it sounds like you are are a bit skeptical, so we are good there), do not.

Have you ever spent time on the dyno and experimented with low boost/high timing and high boost/low timing? Yes, our cars like more boost and less timing generally, but there is a point of diminishing returns. Do you want to run high boost and low timing (raising EGTs), or make the same power with less boost and more timing? Stop bench racing, don't tune completely around boost and timing numbers in which you think you should be able to get away with. If you can run 30psi and are upset with the amount of timing are able to run, TURN THE BOOST DOWN. Running 30psi on pump fuel isn't much to brag about. Your timing is pulled so far back that it is not worth the extra boost. Did your car have 92 or 94oct when you arrived at Luke's shop?

For you to sit here and tell unknowing people that English will not tune a car to it's full potential if they did not build the car is simply ignorant. Did it ever occur to you that your car was not tuned to its full potential because it had issues and a combination of parts that aren't proven to work well? I know Aaron can be blunt. There is a reason why Aaron talks about which parts work and which parts do not. We all talked shit about BEP/Holsets long before English had any sort obligation towards FP. At the end of the day, the FP turbos perform and are on top of the game. You need to realize that Aaron sees hundreds of cars a year in which he gets to play with all sorts combinations, some work, some don't. There is a reason why when I asked for Luke's input on my build, I didn't argue with him. I simply asked for his reasoning and if it was convincing enough, I gave him the go ahead. These parts were never the high dollar parts or parts that I did not need (for instance, he never tried to sell me cams gears, but rather told me which cams he has had good luck with when installed straight up and made good power). I think you don't understand what a dyno tune entails exactly. A tuner is not going to push a car harder to justify the money. If the car is close when it rolls in, then great, that's less time you have to sit in the shop, waiting to go home, and at this point, you get the nod of approval from a reputable shop that the car is safe to rip on and enjoy for some time. A customer should be able to guarantee a tuner that the timing and plug gap are within spec when the car hits the rollers, you re paying for a dyno tune, not a tune up.

Phunny, did you happen to buy Jeff's silver 2g? They (the other members) may not know the background behind that car and the tune, but I do, and to me, you sound like a moron for having that attitude.

Here is your car, when Jeff owned it, tuned on ECMLink. It seemed to have drove down to the track perfectly fine with great street manners and actually had a decent run on street tires, despite your claims that English couldn't tune ECMLink back in those days.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvFrqZeMw7I]Jeff's Eclipse goes 10.5 at 136 - YouTube[/ame]

Anyways... sorry for the rant. It bothered me a bit to see English get thrown under the bus when they are in fact the most reputable and honest shop I have ever dealt with, I refuse to deal with any other shop in the area after going through different platforms and dealing with the other specialty shops.

 

[LucasEnglish]

I find I have to have nice IC, Sheet metal intake and S2 or 4p4r cams to even run 25psi on most DSM's. Most DSM on 92 cant make much more hp past 22psi. You have low timing from to much boost. Either E85 race gas or meth injection to fix the timing problem.

Not sure if I can recover but I would let you use the dyno for free and give my feed back.

 

[LucasEnglish]

Well you answered your own question I guess. You did a ok job and all we did was light tweaking. I would do a little better the Aaron at getting the geek stuff to match but in the end the 24psi and 12.0 AF and I bet it was on the edge of knock then is all she had. Really 398whp on stock intake, BC cams, on 92oct is pretty dam good.

my problem wast that it didn't drive good, it drove good when i brought it to you it drove good when i left only 40 whp more. my problem was that aaron hardly changed anything in the tune that i had brought him. i can post the log of me on the way down and on the way back to the shop and you can compare and tell me if you think what he did was worth the $300. there was 3 timing cells changed in the DA WOT area and then in the idle he changed everything to 15 thats IT. and leaned out the DA. granted he checked the timing mechanically before we started and regapped the plugs, id think that's standard though. i guess i went into it thinking that everything would match up and not be so timing retarded.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

You see, you can't say I'm running too little timing BECAUSE too much boost, I've tried messing with the tables since 15psi waste gate pressure before i added in another spring, no changes. Yes i was in 92 when i arrived at the shop, and I'm in canada now where there is 94. I said that earlier. Point is i was running 28psi with the same timing numbers right before i came in but i turned it DOWN thinking they would know where to set it at and timing accordingly. Timing was
Not changed nor boost i arrived on 22psi and it stayed at 22psi spiking to 24by 7k. I said i was unpleased with aaron. When i met lucas (once) he seemed like a very straight up guy. My shop experience was not with lucas. When i say "english tune" I'm obviously referring to the shop not lucas himself since he didn't touch my car. Anyway i guess in the end i thought I'd get more calibration than anything i wanted my shit to line up so if i needed to change anything i te future it would be easier (minor timing modifications) Cause i know i can always turn up boost an mess with afrs myself. I never said i was an expert. But i can get my car running decently.

It doesn't really matter anymore because my setup has changed since then and it's not really apples to apples anymore I'm going t3 .70AR so things will be more lenient in pump gas. Along with a 4" ETS fmic i didn't have when i was at the shop.

I also agree bc272s are shitty cams BUT decet power has been made on them more than once and more power than I'm pushing right now. I had planned for s2's

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Well you answered your own question I guess. You did a ok job and all we did was light tweaking. I would do a little better the Aaron at getting the geek stuff to match but in the end the 24psi and 12.0 AF and I bet it was on the edge of knock then is all she had. Really 398whp on stock intake, BC cams, on 92oct is pretty dam good.

Thats probably true at 12:1. I never got to see the dyno logs. They were on aarons computer.

 

[phunny]

If people have problems with our tune we take care of it if they give us a chance. We have tune well over 1000 different cars and they drive good.

I would say the best thing about us is we build and tune so we can work through problems. That the AVG shop or E tuner cant see. We also have fuel pumps, plugs, wires, injectors, ECU, ETC all in stock to work though problems.

Phunny is a hatter on us which sucks. We did not build the car he bought Jeff did. Jeff built the car before he ever started working for us. I did do the tuning and I know I am better at V3 now then I was
then.

What the heck are you talking about? I'm not a hater at all and I'd like to know where you get that from? I simply asked a question to ensure someone gets the best possible service. The tune which was done by your shop was not up to par, heck, I'm sure it's not even up to your own standards... I asked in a very respectful way if you were proficient in ECMlink, period, nothing more or nothing less. I've recommended you to a few different guys and still sport English Racing Decals and I hate decals.

I realized long ago who built the car and so far besides a few "new guy" mistakes that were a PIA the car runs extremely well. I know this is a Pina motorsports hate thread but they did my bottom end and she's taken everything we throw at her and I couldn't be more pleased.

 

[clipto]

English racing #1. After seeing so many dyno's and they have done and never seen anyone ever have issues that I know of shoot they are doing great. I mean obliviously there doing something right traveling across the world tuning cars and breaking record's. I know everyone want's more who doesn't, but sometimes you need to stop and think there's more then just your hybrid get together car(urbansmoker) to make good power. Check out youtube videos check out forums you will see results of hard work and good combinations.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

My hybrid get together Car? Da fuq?