Spark Knock like crazy!

[MC23]

Alright i eliminated my knock sensor so it will not retard the timing for the spark knock, I have bpr9e NGK plugs. I have tried to retard the timing on the cam angle sensor (is there a special way of adjusting that, i have herd you have to ground some wire?), also i have changed the plugs after that to stock bpr6e plugs. Im gonna mix some xylene to bump up the octane level and try that. Other than my observations, do you guys have any ideas?

 

[larsrya8]

Put the knock sensor back on.

 

[Quasimondo]

What condition is your knock sensor? When they go bad, every mechanical noise the engine makes will be picked up by the knock sensor. If you disable it, unless you've had it tuned with a wideband oxygen sensor and you know for sure what the air/fuel ratio is, that's asking for trouble, especially if you are running lean.

 

[steve]

Alright i eliminated my knock sensor so it will not retard the timing for the spark knock

Please explain what besides removing the sensor you did to eliminate the timing retard from kinock? A missing sensor will trigger a constant timing retard. Did you go and change the ECU code?

Steve

 

[MC23]

what you do is you remove the sensor from the block and the wrap the threads of the sensor with 14 gauge ground wire.... grounding it will keep you from throwing a check engine light. Then tape the wire tightly to the the threads, after that wrap the sensor in a shop towel so it wont pick up any vibration. thus forth eliminting the knock sensor and no more retarded timing.... update on the spark knock i put the hotter plugs in and turn the boost down a little and i didnt have any more spark knock (killed an M3 w/ bolt on's in the process). I just want to know for the future what should i do if i want to turn the boost up more.

 

[AL92]

Those plugs are way way too cold...Even guys with nitrous and huge turbos would rarely run something like a 9 series plug.Is that a mistake or what?I run a huge turbo on pump with 7s.

Those things should be fouling like crazy.

 

[MC23]

Those plugs are way way too cold...Even guys with nitrous and huge turbos would rarely run something like a 9 series plug.Is that a mistake or what?I run a huge turbo on pump with 7s.

Those things should be fouling like crazy.

Yea i figured that out from another friend, thanks for your input(i did change the plugs back to stock bpr6e) . im just trying to get what i can out of my 2.3l that i just built and its choking on stock turbo and IC.... Its suck cause i know the potential of it...

 

[AL92]

You should have no knock on stock turbo at 17 to 18 on decent premium gas 91 or 92.
I wouldn't try to run much above 15 on stock pump ,rewire pump maybe 16 upgrade pump 17 /18 should be fine.use a knock sensor.You get bad gas or whatever you will kill the motor.
Don't go huge exhuast with no cat either or you will see big boost creep. 7s are good plug for around that 15 to 18 range of boost .6 are ok for 10s maybe under 15 range.

Some 1g get phantom knock..usually its lifters..sometimes it impossible to get rid of but I had to get a eprom chipped ecu to get rid of mine with special knock code.
Drove me nuts and made car impossible to tune. I changed out knock sensor,bunch of stuff with no luck.

 

[Joesmoke]

Nothing wrong with no knock sensor, as long as you understand what it all means...

Think water /fluid injection. 18 months here with no KS and meth injection. All is still good.

 

[MC23]

You should have no knock on stock turbo at 17 to 18 on decent premium gas 91 or 92.
I wouldn't try to run much above 15 on stock pump ,rewire pump maybe 16 upgrade pump 17 /18 should be fine.use a knock sensor.You get bad gas or whatever you will kill the motor.
Don't go huge exhuast with no cat either or you will see big boost creep. 7s are good plug for around that 15 to 18 range of boost .6 are ok for 10s maybe under 15 range.

Some 1g get phantom knock..usually its lifters..sometimes it impossible to get rid of but I had to get a eprom chipped ecu to get rid of mine with special knock code.
Drove me nuts and made car impossible to tune. I changed out knock sensor,bunch of stuff with no luck.

See ive always ran 93 octane and with the knock sensor in i had a knock count of 40 on 10psi. Went from 40 degrees of timing to 2 degrees. since then i have "eliminated knock sensor"

 

[MC23]

Nothing wrong with no knock sensor, as long as you understand what it all means...

Think water /fluid injection. 18 months here with no KS and meth injection. All is still good.

Well i only know briefly about the knock sensor.. It will pick up sound of spark knock, worn lifters, other vibrating components. I have removed both balance shafts and that can create high knock count. I have replaced all of my lifters (dosent mean the knock sensor cant hear them) I dont see the pain of removing the knock sensor if it picks up noise from other components. I have not heard any spark knock at all with 15psi and pump gas, anywhere near 20psi sounds nasty (turned the boost controller to high on accident). The reason i see no pain of this is because i have a friend who has "eliminated KS" He runs 23psi (but also has bigger injectors, IC, bigger turbo, S-AFC, 2G MAF, ETC..) he has not had any trouble with his car other than the tansmission.

 

[Joesmoke]

The reason I dont like to bring it up often and make comments like "as long as you understand" is because what I would not want to happen is have someone who does not understand what happens in internal combustion engines, and wreck there engine because of something that I have said.

I made the decision after tons of research, then adding meth injection prior to doing it. I also have the money to repair my car if I screw it up, which the 16 yr old working at burger king may not.

So, heres my hardline take on KS removal. I would only recomend it if there is some form of injection (water/meth) in place. There are too many variables to take an engine down without it.

So, to your original question about the CAS, there is a plug on the firewall that must be grounded. Then using a timing light aimed at the timing marks on the timing belt cover, adjust your timing by rotating CAS CW or CCW. Heres the vfaq:

http://www.vfaq.com/mods/wayback/BradBauer/engine/timing.html

 

[Joesmoke]

Well i only know briefly about the knock sensor.. It will pick up sound of spark knock, worn lifters, other vibrating components. I have removed both balance shafts and that can create high knock count. I have replaced all of my lifters (dosent mean the knock sensor cant hear them) I dont see the pain of removing the knock sensor if it picks up noise from other components. I have not heard any spark knock at all with 15psi and pump gas, anywhere near 20psi sounds nasty (turned the boost controller to high on accident). The reason i see no pain of this is because i have a friend who has "eliminated KS" He runs 23psi (but also has bigger injectors, IC, bigger turbo, S-AFC, 2G MAF, ETC..) he has not had any trouble with his car other than the tansmission.

Heres some info to help you out:

1.Detonation and preignition can be silent killers.Remember that!
2.Detonation is loud PINGING. Preignition sounds like rocks tumbling in your engine
3.Always remember that each car is different. Its Ok to start to evaluate your car based on another, just dont get too confused if your buddies car runs fine, you have the same equipment, and you melt a piston or toast a HG.
4.One of the variables I mentioned in my last post is the gas that goes in your tank. Even filling up from the same station/same pump/using highest octane, you have no control over that fuel coming from pump. I have seen "bad" 94 octane before. It can happen.

HTH
Jason

 

[MC23]

The reason I dont like to bring it up often and make comments like "as long as you understand" is because what I would not want to happen is have someone who does not understand what happens in internal combustion engines, and wreck there engine because of something that I have said.

I made the decision after tons of research, then adding meth injection prior to doing it. I also have the money to repair my car if I screw it up, which the 16 yr old working at burger king may not.

So, heres my hardline take on KS removal. I would only recomend it if there is some form of injection (water/meth) in place. There are too many variables to take an engine down without it.

So, to your original question about the CAS, there is a plug on the firewall that must be grounded. Then using a timing light aimed at the timing marks on the timing belt cover, adjust your timing by rotating CAS CW or CCW. Heres the vfaq:

http://www.vfaq.com/mods/wayback/BradBauer/engine/timing.html

right i completely understand... I am a good mechanic and also have the ability to fix my car if it blows up. I am a machinst for submarine fleet repair and understand combustion chamber in the car... (not trying to be an ass ) I am just curious from others... i dont know a whole lot about water/meth injec. what does it do?

 

[Joesmoke]

right i completely understand... I am a good mechanic and also have the ability to fix my car if it blows up. I am a machinst for submarine fleet repair and understand combustion chamber in the car... (not trying to be an ass ) I am just curious from others... i dont know a whole lot about water/meth injec. what does it do?

Great! I too not trying to be an ass, just covering all bases!

A very short answer on WI is that water (water/water&methanol/straight methanol) is injected post turbo into the airstream. Its injected under pressure with an atomizing nozzle that will turn the fluid into a mist (partially due to atomizing and partially due to the cold liquid mixing with hot air)

A few things then happen. You end up with a colder, denser intake charge. (resisting detonation) You can end up with additional high octane with the use of straight methanol. (also resisting detonation). You end up with a continuous cleaning cycle in the CC, cleaning existing carbon, and preventing new carbon buildup (also resisting detonation)

There is a wealth of info on tuners, the internet and for straight methanol injection, I suggest www.turbobuick.com. I personally spent an evening and read almost every post. Its buick specific, but the concepts are the same.

Heres what it did for my talon:
Stock SMIC
stock 450 injectors
Base timing above 5 deg's
14b @ 20 PSI
-10 TO -15% fuel pulled out on the safc. (I run straight meth so it acts like a fuel)
No knock sensor.

Car ran like a scared cat, mostly due to the timing being well over 20 deg's at full boost.
Jason

 

[MC23]

Great! I too not trying to be an ass, just covering all bases!

A very short answer on WI is that water (water/water&methanol/straight methanol) is injected post turbo into the airstream. Its injected under pressure with an atomizing nozzle that will turn the fluid into a mist (partially due to atomizing and partially due to the cold liquid mixing with hot air)

A few things then happen. You end up with a colder, denser intake charge. (resisting detonation) You can end up with additional high octane with the use of straight methanol. (also resisting detonation). You end up with a continuous cleaning cycle in the CC, cleaning existing carbon, and preventing new carbon buildup (also resisting detonation)

There is a wealth of info on tuners, the internet and for straight methanol injection, I suggest www.turbobuick.com. I personally spent an evening and read almost every post. Its buick specific, but the concepts are the same.

Heres what it did for my talon:
Stock SMIC
stock 450 injectors
Base timing above 5 deg's
14b @ 20 PSI
-10 TO -15% fuel pulled out on the safc. (I run straight meth so it acts like a fuel)
No knock sensor.

Car ran like a scared cat, mostly due to the timing being well over 20 deg's at full boost.
Jason

That is really great info and i am now thinking of investing in water/meth injec. But the only place where im confused is water/meth does the same thing as nitrous... is water/meth just a less atomizing effect thus forth being safer?

 

[Joesmoke]

Nitrous does have a cooling effect, but thats not where its main power comes from. It comes from the "O" in N2O. Releases a big bunch 'o oxygen into the CC.

Water injection/methanol injection does not add power on its own. In fact, if you add it and do nothing else to your car, it will run like crap.

What it allows you to do is run more boost/timing/leaner mix before detonation, preignition sets in. More accurately, it moves that threshold up.

It is usually a mix of those 3, with more boost being what most concentrate on. It also can allow the use of lower octane fuel, but I still fill up on 94.

Glad I could help.
Jason

 

[Joesmoke]

I'm still having a hard time figuring out where the thread went from check your base timing, to get water injection.

MC, honestly check your base timing, I know even if you didn't mess with the head/cams and built your 2.3, I know a few people that did the same thing, and their base timing was out of whack, so much that they got knock off boost from too much advance.

Yeah, it did get off course...but I mentioned how to chech base timing in post 12.

It went to water injection because he is not running a knock sensor.