Setting up a 60 trim and fuel sys for ethanol

[hose101772]

If you're going to depend on vaporization for intake charge cooling then you need to move the injectors as far away from the valves as possible.Think outer end of runners.Also I dont think you need to worry with top end oiling,to make big power your rings are going to have to be loose.The factory e85 cars only have injection changes to run it.You should be fine there.If was available here i would run it but its not,so i dont.Anyway you seem excited about it so shut the hell up about it and build it already.(joke-sorta)good luck.

 

[MNGSX]

I'm keeping the injectors in the stock location. I'll use a FMIC to drop the intake just like gas.

The alcohol will still sap the CC temps alot.


Pro's and cons to injector placement exist. Keeping in the stock location is easier and it will idle better.

Anyway you seem excited about it so shut the hell up about it and build it already.(joke-sorta)good luck

I'm working on it!

When I run into trouble I'll ask.

 

[DV8tion]

I'll get a toyota 4x4 pickup for a winter beater.



I have a 84 Land Cruiser for sale.

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by DV8tion

I'll get a toyota 4x4 pickup for a winter beater.



I have a 84 Land Cruiser for sale.

No way!!!!

Texas = little or no rust and a kick ass truck to a MN carnut.

Shoot me details in PM.

You can do alot with toy axles and drivelines

Hmm I can just see my brother spraying the inner fender wells with bedliner instead of undercoating.

 

[Rogue_Ant]

So the A/F ratio for E85 to shoot for is ~8-1?
Anyone know what this corresponds to on an narrow band O2?
Or is this beyond what 'normal' O2s can read?

Rogue

 

[MNGSX]

For 85% its probably closer to 10.1

I'll dig it up for you.


O2 sensors are just that 02 sensors not really A/F sensors. Either a standard or wideband can be used with the fuel.

Lets say you have a narrow or wide band o2 and its calibrated for gas. You switch to E85 and tune it such that it reads stoich based on the "gas" o2 sensors

Although the fuel is different rich would still mean rich and lean means lean on this gauge. A 12 : 1 reading on the gauge would mean like a 10 : 1 air fuel ration for the E85 or something.

If you are using just 02 volts (narrow band) do it just like for gas. What voltage is a good a/f. It takes more fuel to get there but a gas engine and a E85 engine tuned to match each fuel will put out the same o2 volts.

So the o2 volts is really only a measurement of if the A/f ratio is right not really what the ratio is. It just counts oxygen not fuel.

The blinky light gauges just guess what the ratio is for gas based on how much 02 it sees in the exhaust.

 

[Rogue_Ant]

MNGSX, thanks for clearing that up...I was in something of a hurry, and guess I just didn't think about it.

Rogue

 

[MNGSX]

Here are some number on why I want to do it. The$e kind of number$.

http://www.cordovadrag.com/2003/news/gas.html

Look at VP 116. $7.50 Gallon ouch.

Look at methanol $2.50 Gallon less ouch but $4.50 as you use 2x as much.

http://www.energyinstitution.org/afi 05-29-03.pdf

Scroll to ethanol

Note Average of MN prices

E100 (typically sold to public as 98% 2% gas so less taxes)

Average $1.10

You use less than methanol but more than gas. It is still a lot less than half the cost of methanol and beats VP116 if your running it right.

E85

Average $1.07 Use maybe 1.5x gas a/f or so. Beats 95 octane and probably 110-112 in power output.


The best way is to make you own E85 via going to the plant with the gas you want to mix with it. So you mix 15% high octane petrol (93 + that if you are rich) with 85% enthanol (115 octane plus vaporization effect).



So comparing VP116 with E98.

$7.50 for 116

$1.10 for E98 x ~1.7 (for Air Fuel ratio difference) = $1.88

Makes sense to me.

 

[badboyr66]

Originally posted by MNGSX



Nice motor and very well planned out setup but

That poor poor automatic transmission. It's getting used and abused.

I am the one that pulled that tranny for the talon at F2uing and as it isits now Jason said it was not running enough line pressure and they were going back to the 5 speed

 

[MNGSX]

That should hold up better. Esp if it is a built up manual.

I am interested in some of the stuff on that car like the kevlar t case blanket.

 

[MNGSX]

http://www.f2uning.com/pages/9/index.htm

If you are running the big aeromotive electric pump you are probably OK for drag racing. You could however run out of pump due to the volume that alcohol demands.

I see it has eight of the 160lb injectors and two -8 rails.


I'm going with a single -10 rail and four injectors and see if that is enough.

I'm also considering a BG mechanical fuel pump (#1/2) the hex drive model not the belt. I'll drive it off the cam (takes 1hp max, valve springs eat up alot more than that). When I get a ECU in I'll go to a multi-tooth crank mounted trigger and not run a CAS. So I'll just fabricate a hex drive to thread in the end of the cam and mount the pump where the CAS was.

It pumps fuel volume in relation to engine RPM something electric pumps can not do. It also has very little flow loss (GPM) when pressure increases. Another thing a big electric cant do. The two gear pump is positive displacement and it's high efficiency does'nt heat the fuel nor is fuel used to cool the electric motor. To top it all off It is cheaper than really big external electric pumps. It is designed to be turned at 1/2 crank RPM just like a cam.

At idle it pumps the same GPM as something like a in tank high perf pump. As pump shaft speed rises so does flow direct proportion to engine RPM. That is an excellent thing. If sized right it will pump just the right amount of volume to reliably feed the engine at the RPM it is currently at. It flows the pants of electric pumps but idles when the engine idles since that is what is turning it.


I'll have some priming issues to work out since the cell wont be higher than the pump.

One idea is to keep an in tank pump but as a primer with a check valve between it's feed line and the rail and a pressure switch wired to a relay and the ignition for control. Using a more coarse filter (100 micron) on the feed with a finer filter (8 or 10 micron) on the pump outlet will help too. That way even if it is parked long enough for the pressure to go out of the rail it can prime from the back of the pump to the FPR and start the engine allowing the mechanical drive to prime up and take over.

The rule book requires mechanical pumps to have a bypass valve. A lever type valve that routes the pump outlet to back to the tank for a emergency shut off. I'll have that covered.

Check out the pro 5.0 guys. Most of the alcohol cars run them. The mechanical pumps are perfectly suited for supplying the needed amounts of that fuel. Aeromotive makes one too but only one size and I think it is way too big.

BG has three sizes to choose from and the pump is directional but you can move the input shaft to drive the other gear and you are good if your drive is turing the other way. The middle size #1/2 should do just fine.

I'm thinking the bigger single rail, rock solid pump flow at any and all pressures combined with the fact that ethanol air fuel ratio is'nt as rich as methanol will alow just the four 160lb (at 43psi) to flow enough not to need a second rail. If it becomes necessary I'll add four more injectors but I really don't think I'll need it since the pump flow does'nt tail off much at all with pressure increases.

Simply put it is the right pump for the fuel.

 

[Rogue_Ant]

Originally posted by MNGSX
http://www.f2uning.com/pages/9/index.htm
BG has three sizes to choose from and the pump is directional but you can move the input shaft to drive the other gear and you are good if your drive is turing the other way. The middle size #1/2 should do just fine.

Are any of the mechanical pumps built for continuous use?

Rogue

 

[MNGSX]

it will do continous use better than the giant electic pumps since it wont be trying to recirculate a full tank of gas in 5 minutes of idling.

They use them alot on circle track cars so I guess that is a yes. I would'nt "road trip" in car like that but you could drive pretty far to a track or show without overheating the fuel.

The pump is alot like our oilpumps as far as how it works and what the guts look like. Just alot bigger.

 

[MNGSX]

I'm thinking of driving it off the other end of the cam now.

It would put the bypass valve closer to the return line and it is easier to fab a hex drive for the sprocket end than extending out one from the other end of the cam.

I could also reproduce the mounts and hex drives for sale as more people who keep the CAS will want them.

 

[MNGSX]

The mechanical pumps are good at pushing fuel not pulling it.

It would need to be mounted alot lower on the engine and at minimum a sump will need to be added to the tank.

The best way is a small front mounted fuel cell. But we all know how much room is there. Under acceleration the fuel is trying to go to the pump as opposed to fighting it.

Looks like I'll use atleast two electric pumps into a single AN line. I can put a check valve inline with any pump/pumps I want to turn off for idle and cruise.

It will be easier to plumb and I wont have to wory about priming and keeping the fuel tank fuel level above the pump.

There just is'nt room to mount and plumb that mech pump correctly anywhere on these cars.

Back to the drawing board for pumps atleast.

 

[JET]

I have also thought of this, but haven't gotten too far into it. I was going to check it out more this winter. I am also in minnesota.

One problem I was trying to figure out was that the EGT's will be cooler, so it won't spool up the turbo as well. There will also me more fuel and oxygen being burned so maybe that would counteract the effect some?

Are you on MN-DSM or DSMstyle?

 

[MNGSX]

The EGT's are hotter NOT cooler.

While the chamber temps are lower at a given cylinder pressure than gasoline the EGT temps are a bit higher.

Heat just does'nt vanish. What absorbed heat that does'nt get used turning the fuel into vapor and in the combustion process goes out the exhaust.

I was told this by a professional circle track engine builder.

 

[JET]

You are wrong. The latent heat in ethanol is much higher than gasoline. This is what makes an engine run so much cooler with ethanol. It absorbs over 3 times the heat of gasoline. It does not produce as much heat as gasoline though, that is why you have to inject more into the engine. You have to inject 66% more ethanol into an engine to produce the same heat (power) as gas. So you have much lower temperatures. The exhaust is going to be denser because it is colder and will not spool the turbo as quickly. I simplified this some, but that is the main princple.

Many of the race car guys are having a problem even getting their cars up to operating temperature because the EGT's are so low. I think you need to do some more research before you start trying to spread your word around as truth. You were also spreading misinformation in a few other threads. This is a big pet peeve of mine. If you don't know the real answer, then don't give a wrong one.

 

[MNGSX]

You have to inject 66% more ethanol into an engine to produce the same heat (power) as gas.

Ok.

But you go on and sound stupid

So you have much lower temperatures. .

Ok smarty pants. If you as you said... use more ethanol to produce the SAME HEAT as gas... how in the f&cking hell are the temperatures going to be much lower?

The engine builders I talked to are getting as high if not higher EGTs and increased exhaust gas velocity. They are in MN. If you want PM me and I will give you the #'s.

BTU per lb

Gas 19.000

Ethanol 11.500


The air fuel ratio for ethanol is about 1.66 times more fuel.

so 1.66 x 11,500 = 19090

Really close to gas. Depending on the exact mixture it that particular motor runs best on the same BTU's or more. You can run this fuel with a little wider richness saftey margin than gas and not see power drop off as much.

The fuels oxygen content is also higher. So their is more oxygen in the combustion chamber.

It does absorb heat. Which can be good or bad depending on CR and boost levels. When you got it right it is good as there IS more heat and velocity in the exhaust. If your static CR and boost levels are'nt high enough to make use of the fuels charge cooling abililties or its octane you will see less velocity. But if the boost level and static compression are right it will have as much or more. If you know what you are doing you will be getting more air into the motor, squeezing it harder and burning more fuel. If volumetric efficiency is higher due to the decreased charge temps the engine will take in more air at a given RPM. So you would still be at the same AFR but since more air is going in you are using more fuel at a given RPM to maintain AFR than the gas engine. So you could need as much as 1.8 times as much ethanol as gas at a given RPM just because more air is going in and it is needed to keep that 1.66 ratio over gasoline.

With a cooler intake charge you can burn more fuel since the air is cooler.

I'll make this simple.. If I were a cartoonist I'd draw one for you.

An engine is basically an air pump.

More cool air in = more fuel burned = more heat and exhaust gases out the exhaust.

If more air goes in... More comes out...

More volume of air going thru the same exhaust ports at the same or slightly higher heat increases velocity.

Yes many racers have trouble getting them to warm up right when they first start working with the fuel. There are tricks to that like high temp thermostats, cold start and cold engine enrichment/timing tricks. EGT"s have very little to do with how fast an engine warms up its almost entirely about how much heat goes into the block and head.

Many of the lower budget circle track cars have steel heads. An alumimum head will heat the engine to operating temp faster. As it transfers heat better to the coolant and the t-stat is still closed. Once warm it will run cooler because it can transfer more heat to the coolant and the t-stat is open so more heat goes to the radiator. A hotter thermostat is a good idea for ethanol.

Many of these guys are just starting to use it and still have their gas tricks in mind. They are also mostly non EFI cars. Just a re jetted holley. It does'nt adjust fuel and timing based on engine temp.

 

[JET]

Holy crap, where do I start? Did you even understand my post? I think you need to study up on your chemistry and physics!

No I didn't sound stupid about the exhaust temperatures being lower for ethanol even though it was producing the same amount of heat from the combustion process. You agree that the combustion chamber is cooler from the ethanol because it has nearly 3 times the cooling capacity than gas. Don't you think the engine is going to absorb more of the heat that is produced since it is cooler?

Originally posted by MNGSX


BTU per lb

Gas 19.000

Ethanol 11.500


The air fuel ratio for ethanol is about 1.66 times more fuel.

so 1.66 x 11,500 = 19090

Brilliant, you figured out the 66% that I had already told you about in my last post

It does absorb heat. Which can be good or bad depending on CR and boost levels. When you got it right it is good as there IS more heat and velocity in the exhaust.

I would like to hear your theory behind this. Please include some real technical info or equations, not just heresay.

If your static CR and boost levels are'nt high enough to make use of the fuels charge cooling abililties or its octane you will see less velocity.

You mean when you aren't under boost yet? So you mean there might be more turbo lag like I posted before? I never said anything about there not being enough flow at high boost, I was just thinking there may be more lag. Now you are agreeing with me whether you realized it or not!

With a cooler intake charge you can burn more fuel since the air is cooler.

This would be sweet if it would happen, but I think the effect in a fuel injected engine is going to be negligable. With a carb you have a while for the ethanol to evaporate, but with fuel injection you are putting it straight into the head and not into the intake charge. There may be some help from a small amount of vaporization while the valves are still open and some from the engine running cooler. I don't think it will be substantial though.

Yes many racers have trouble getting them to warm up right when they first start working with the fuel. There are tricks to that like high temp thermostats, cold start and cold engine enrichment/timing tricks. EGT"s have very little to do with how fast an engine warms up its almost entirely about how much heat goes into the block and head.

Maybe I should draw you a cartoon? A high temp thermostat is going to help an engine warm up? The thermostat is closed at warm-up. Richening up the mixture is going to make the engine run even cooler! EGT's have little to do with how fast an engine warms up?? You even say it has more to do with how much heat goes in the engine and head. Where do you think the heat in an engine comes from if it isn't from the combustion process?

Don't take this so personal, this is just a good debate and a lot of good usually comes out of them. I am with you, I think ethanol would be a great thing to try in a DSM. I think there is going to be more lag, but you will be able to run much higher boost, maybe even more than race gas because of the increased cooling.

What kind of fuel management are you going to use? It will have to be a stand alone of some sort. I am running an AEM EMS (the only running DSM in MN with one) and it would work great for it.

 

[MNGSX]

Brilliant, you figured out the 66% that I had already told you about in my last post

Actually I knew that along time ago.

Yes it has three times the cooling of gas.

The point I'm trying to make is that when you combine all the attributes of the fuel and use it properly there is MORE exhaust gas flow.

Even if the temperatures are lower in the exhaust but you have more volume you can have as much or more exhaust velocity.

Running the fuel will not make a 16g spool like a 20g or anyting. Nor will it make a 20g spool like a 16g. The differences if you have the AFR right are small. Its effect in either direction will be negligable.

I can if you want give you a # to a guy who has built everything from dirt track engines for bubba to full on NASCAR engines.

On the DYNO his V8s with 8 egt probes tuned via wideband typically have slightly higher EGT's.

It really varies from slightly lower to slightly higher depending on the engine and the AFR tuned on. Typically they run just a touch richer for more saftey margin than gas

Maybye I'll try to swing up there when he dynos another one and shoot some tape.

This would be sweet if it would happen, but I think the effect in a fuel injected engine is going to be negligable. With a carb you have a while for the ethanol to evaporate, but with fuel injection you are putting it straight into the head and not into the intake charge. There may be some help from a small amount of vaporization while the valves are still open and some from the engine running cooler. I don't think it will be substantial though.

I love this
"straight into the head and not into the intake charge"

I think the intake charge goes thru the head does'nt it?


It is still substantial. The fuel as you regurgated the information has 3 times the cooling effect. Or rather takes three times the heat to turn into vapor. The runner length on typical carb race manifolds is quite short and the passages large. At the velocity the intake air is moving its cooling effect is'n that much different than injecting at the head. Injectors also have better atomization than carbs to begin with. It may outperform a carb at the head do to the superior spray. A second bank of injectors at the ends of the runners would beat this still but both beat a carb.

Yes the atomization/ intake stroke is cooler.

We agree that the combustion process can be made to create as much heat.

Between the power stroke and exhaust stroke do you really think there is that much time for the engine to absorb much heat.

Two engines producing the same amount of power on either fuel will have nearly the same amount of heat and air going out the exhaust. It's a fact that a given amount of BTU's and air are required for a certain HP no matter which fuel. So if you have the same BTU's and air the waste gas heat, volume and velocity will be similar. Ethanol has more oxygen in it. This is part of why it needs a higher AFR. So you have about what 33% oxygen content versus 10% max sometimes zero for gas. So when you run at 1.66 higher AFR than gas you have about 55% more oxygen in the fuel than gas. Hmm alot more really cool oxygen coming from the fuel. Tell me that does'nt help combustion or the effects of it go out the exhaust valve just like everything else.

In fact since the ethanol is cleaner it has less particulates and other stuff in it. Its a higher quality mix of hot gases so it may have more flow.

A high temp thermostat is going to help an engine warm up? The thermostat is closed at warm-up. Richening up the mixture is going to make the engine run even cooler! EGT's have little to do with how fast an engine warms up?? You even say it has more to do with how much heat goes in the engine and head. Where do you think the heat in an engine comes from if it isn't from the combustion process?

It will warm up at the same rate. Ethanol will like to idle and cruise at a higher temp so the stat will help with that. If it idles and toodles around better at 190 than at 160 it WILL reach 190 faster than with a 160 themostat. It won't hit 160 faster with a 190 thermostat but if the best operating temp on that fuel is higher it will reach it faster if the stat stays closed untill then. That was'nt that hard to figure out was it?

As far as "doing it to a DSM".. A turbo charged injected inline four is for the most part a turbocharged inline injected four.

Look at a previous link in this thread about venom racing. They have a 800hp plus civic with an integra motor in it. They also have a 1500+ hp supra.

For engine management V2 of DSM link looks like it will do the trick.

No matter how pretty the ECU's enclosure (or resemblence to an amp) it still only controls and monitors so many things.

As far as what you change for tuning they are the same. The signal to the injectors and the ignition timing.

Either link or EMS will work.

 

[MNGSX]

Richening up the mixture is going to make the engine run even cooler!

I forgot to adress that. Cold start enrichement occurs on even stock cars. Come to think of it ever start a lawn mower and have to use the choke smart guy?

Engines idle and cruise very lean for emissions and fuel economy reasons but they don't like to run that lean when cold.

Since we at this point are talking about mixtures well below stoich adding more fuel when cold will still be leaner than stoich but have more exhaust gas velocity due to more fuel burning?

Heat does'nt spool a turbo. The exhaust gas velocity and volume does. Heat does come into play but you can put as much or more spin on that shaft with by shooting a higher volume of cooler gases thru it than a lower volume of hot gases. Heat is only one factor if you are only looking at the exhaust heat you are missing part of the picture. It may be at a certain temp but how much is going thru there is a bigger factor than just how hot it is.

 

[fusion_ta66]

Originally posted by MNGSX
The EGT's are hotter NOT cooler.

So was this statement correct or blatantly wrong?

 

[MNGSX]

It was correct.

 

[Aniel]

Originally posted by MNGSX
I have'nt found AP yet.


I looked thru some of the threads on 60 trims. Some of your stuff and others has sold me on the GT40 56 trim.

Now for the turbine housing options?

Im not sure if its too late to reply here but its been along time since ive been here so anybody needs to get in touch with me i just updated my profile and my website is under construccion but theres contact info there too