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Running no intercooler

Posted by Schmegma, May 11, 2015

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  1. Schmegma

    Schmegma Proven Member

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    So my setup so far will be a 16g, e85, running either dsm link or megasquirt.

    Looking at running no intercooler and 2 extra injectors in the charge pipe / hot pipe.

    My questions are has anyone done this?

    What temps are you guys who have done this seeing ?

    Worth the hassle or should I just stick to a fmic setup - also what do you guys recommend for a fmic setup if I decide to scrap this "hot pipe" project.

    This vehicle will be primarily used for road course , rally cross and some drag strip passes every once in a while.

    Effectively reducing pressure drop with no intercooler and possibly much better pre and after turbo cooling with e85 and the added fuel sounds enticing!

    What does not sound like fun is gumming up the IAT and possibly the MAP from running extra fuel on the charge pipe. Possible overheat from sitting at idle...? not sure what else

    Thanks for the help all !
     
  2. ed_GST

    ed_GST Proven Member

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    Gurnee, Illinois
    Water injection would drop the temp

    I did it with a TSX i had and was able to run 300whp no intercooler with no issues on pump gas.

    But be careful with the water/meth the car will be totally dependent on it
     

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    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    13.803 @ 108.590 · 2G DSM
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  3. Schmegma

    Schmegma Proven Member

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    Great! Unlike your kit, I'm going to be running on e85 or methanol all the time and extra injectors on the charge pipe. I won't ever run out of fuel/ cooling effect unless the fuel cell runs out and the engine stops !
     
  4. Chumpaumpalumpa

    Chumpaumpalumpa Proven Member

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    The MAP? And megasquirt? Is this for a 420a car? LOL at your name btw
     

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    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  5. YZFR1

    YZFR1 Proven Member

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    With evo3 16g i was seeing 180* intake temps on a partial 3rd gear pull. That was on e85 and 2200cc of straight methanol. That turbo makes a lot of hot air at 30 psi.
     
    YZFR1

    633  0

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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  6. Schmegma

    Schmegma Proven Member

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    Was this with no intercooler? how many injectors?

    Thinking of possibly running straight methanol as well but then I can kiss the "street car" idea goodbye haha
     
  7. Schmegma

    Schmegma Proven Member

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    Yes this will be speed density.

    Not sure on your other questions.

    4G63 motor

    Haha thanks! It was after 2 (I think) user name's on here being banned about 7 yrs or so ago.
     
  8. Archer Fabrications

    Archer Fabrications Proven Member

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    Thats hot as sh**!!!! Even for meth fuel. Holy crap I'd expect way lower. It is a tiny turbo though.
     

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    2006 Evo 9 MR
    awd · manual · Lancer Evolution
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  9. Chumpaumpalumpa

    Chumpaumpalumpa Proven Member

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    I was saying because the cars with the 420a use a MAP and generally use megasquirt to tune I figured you were doing this to an n/t. Go DSMlink for sure. I like the idea of chemical intercooling you are going for but I'm not sure it'll be too efficient with that small of a turbo at high boost levels. Maybe have the pipes sitting in liquid helium LOL. But actually I do have a question about chem cooling. Why do you not want to inject it pre-turbo? Would that not atomize the particles further? Or would they combine and be bigger molecules?
     

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    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  10. Archer Fabrications

    Archer Fabrications Proven Member

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    People inject meth pre turbo all the time
     

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    2006 Evo 9 MR
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  11. BogusSVO

    BogusSVO Proven Member

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    WITW, The 83-86 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe did NOT an IC from the factory, and ran a Garrett T-3 and maxed out at 14psi, the 87-88 TC came with a "heat sink" of a top mount.

    So yes it is possible to run a turbo engine with out a IC

    Your cooling system will have to be spot on to deal with the added temps the water jacket will have to deal with.
    Along with your ignition timing.

    You may want to consider a slightly larger turbo at a lower pressure to drop your IAT.

    Keep in mind for every 1* you drop your IAT, your EGT drops 3*
     
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  12. Chumpaumpalumpa

    Chumpaumpalumpa Proven Member

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    Oh, didn't know that haha. Thanks.
    Edit: I went and read up on injector location and found the best thing is to have 2 or 3 injectors. 1 right at the turbo inlet to take advantage of wet compression and keep it cooler whilst compression occurs, and the others right before the throttle body to further cool it.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2015

    Street Build 4K  22

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  13. Schmegma

    Schmegma Proven Member

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    What turbo do you recommend? Keep in mind this is not a drag car - this will be a primarily road course, rally cross build. Something ball bearing ?

    Speaking of ignition timing I haven't even thought of that yet. I'm guessing coil packs are needed ?

    I'm planning on running the most efficient / biggest radiator / fan setup I can find (recommendations here are well appreciated!) my own ducting and heat shielding, either no t-stat or a gutted t-stat, evans waterless coolant, etc
     
  14. GST with PSI

    GST with PSI DSM Wiseman

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    Cliffs notes for TLDR:
    In my opinion, 90% of people would be better off using a simple air-to-air intercooler properly matched to your setup. You can read below for the why. Suffice it to say, pump gas is probably one of the most inefficient fluids you could use to cool the intake charge with. E85 isn't much better, but that's definitely the way to go of the two. Of course, pure methanol would be the best common option I've seen used on the 4G platform. If you want examples of this, you can look at John Sheperd, Tony Niemczyk, Jett racing, and Brent Rau. These cars are all serious 1/4 mile track cars running various hotpipe setups on methanol; not everyday builds for the weekend warrior. They certainly aren't road course cars. I got into a huge pissing contest with another member on the Galant forums about this very subject. I'm just going to copy and paste much of what I said in my other thread here. You can take what you read and reach your own conclusions:



    Any way you cut it, more efficient cooling allows for a more aggressive tune, and E85 would allow for better cooling in a hotpipe setup by virtue of being largely composed of ethanol. If you wanted to optimize the hotpipe setup for a more aggressive tune, you wouldn't use gasoline or E85. You'd use methanol. Hell, even water would yield better results cooling the intake charge than gasoline or E85. If the hotpipe is meant to cool the intake charge, you want a fluid that absorbs a lot of heat as it evaporates. If it aids in the combustion process as it absorbs heat, that's even better; hence methanol being the best choice of the 3 fuels mentioned.

    Liquid intercooling works on the principal that as liquid changes state, it absorbs heat. To explain this principal simply, each liquid absorbs a different amount of heat as it evaporates, making some liquids better for liquid intercooling than others. The principal I've just described is the reason pump gas and E85 are not very good when used for liquid intercooling. This is also the reason I keep saying using water or methanol would be exponentially better. Using pump gas to intercool would be like pissing into the A/C system and expecting it to work. The properties of the "coolant" or fluid used in the system directly correlate to how well the system works...Or if it works at all.

    I'd be curious to see one of the logs from people using hotpipe setups at higher boost levels with gasoline or E85, ESPECIALLY if they are running a small frame turbo like the 14b/16g. By the time you dump enough fuel (gasoline or E85) in the hotpipe to effectively cool the intake charge, I'd think you'd be so rich that you'd be hurting power. This would hold especially true with small frame turbos like the 14/16G, which really heat the intake charge at higher boost levels. Sure, there are plenty of cars that come factory without intercoolers. Those cars are running laughable boost levels from the factory, and can get away without having an intercooler. Science tells us when you start making greater than stock power levels, there are more efficient ways to do things. There's a reason you don't see many builds utilizing a hotpipe alone, and that's because AA intercoolers are less complicated and work well in most cases. Liquid intercoolers (e.g water/methanol injection) work well also, but are much more complex in comparison. That's also why you mainly see pure methanol hotpipe setups on serious 1/4 mile cars. Typically on street cars, you'll see people who use water/meth injection pair it with an air/air intercooler, to get the best of both worlds. Keep in mind, the system needs to be "tuned" to optimize efficiency, so your average Joe typically doesn't want to dick with it. In addition, if your only intercooler is a liquid intercooler, it's a single point of failure. If at any time that system quits working, you're fu(ked. This is why most people have fail safes built into their meth setups; to monitor the system for pressure. If at any point the system stops working, the car swaps back to a non-methanol map, no harm no foul. See where liquid intercooling gets much harder than throwing on a core and some hard piping???

    In summary, I wouldn't ever use a hotpipe setup, especially for a road course car. There are much better/easier ways to cool the intake charge on 99% of the cars/applications people here have.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2015

    Street Build 26K  18  143

    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4
    12.030 @ 119.39 · Galant VR-4

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    1982 Yamaha Virago
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    1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4
    awd · manual · Galant VR-4
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  15. bigdnno98

    bigdnno98 Proven Member

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    ^^^^^This. You would never want a hot pipe setup for an autox or track car. I can see it for purpose built drag cars but you wouldn't even want to drive those on the street. When your liquid (ethanol/methanol whatever) isn't spraying, like while cruising, your IATs are going to be through the roof. You're not going to be able to spray while cruising, or you'd need a 16 gallon tank LOL. spraying e85 from the gas tank just isn't going to cool the air enough without an intercooler, esp on a small turbo like a 16g at high boost. Your best bet is an air to water intercooler honestly. or if you don't want to get that complicated run an efficient FMIC and spray water/meth, 1 small nozzle pre-turbo and 1 or 2 in the cold side charge piping pre-TB.
     

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    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
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  16. portum89

    portum89 Proven Member

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    Maple Grove, Minnesota
    Just run a supra side mount or a better side mount. 16g would be great for that purpose. Tune on e85 and call it a day! 264/264 cams.
     

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