Running a SAFCII with my mods, notable gains/worth it?

[Rengar18]

So I planned on getting a few more supporting mods before I slapped it on but lately I have become a bit strapped for cash fixing an electrical issue. Trying to decide should I get a 190 walbro/WB02/550s before I install and start tuning with my SAFCII (On stock injectors/Fp and 14b) Or would I be OK using and tuning it with the mods I have.

I've researched a fair amount about tuning and such but im still extremely nooby to the whole process. Certainly not trying to blow my motor. So this will be my first tune.

Anyway, HONESTLY guys how safe is this? I have evoscan and can post up logs accordingly (albeit im not entirely sure what I should be logging besides knocksum) And is it worth it? Probably going to Daily drive it like this for 1-2 months till I can afford a Fuel pump/wideband so I definitely dont want to install it if its not going to give me much of a hp/mpg gain.

 

[gofer]

It sounds like your trying to do a budget build and run around 20psi DD'ing? If so you don't need a 190/550's, if your on a budget you can get the same results by running an Evo FP and injectors and pay less than $100 for both. You'll want to spend your money on the WB and logger your going to need to tune with the SAFC.

You could install the SAFC and run 16psi safely on the stock fuel system (if the fp rewired) and you atleast had a WB installed so you can monitor your AFR's. Would it be worth it though, probably not... You could install the SAFC and just leave it zero'd out so its installed and ready when you do put the bigger injectors in though.

Heres some good NEW writeups that were done, wish I had them when I first building the car from stock...
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-tuning-ecu/366004-safc-tuning-how-why.html

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-tuning-ecu/366003-injector-fuel-pump-supported-airflow.html

The 14b is good for 34lbs/min. of airflow so you'll want to base your fuel support mods on that number. Stock Evo injectors are 510cc which would be right about perfect for your 14b setup and the same for the Evo FP rewired.

 

[YeahRight564]

I'd definitely get that wideband a/f before installing a SAFC.

 

[spyderturbo007]

I tuned my Spyder for years with 650cc injectors using the SAFC-II and had a great tune. I was pushing 21psi with no problems. You'll be fine. Once you get ready to start, let me know and I'll walk you through the setup of the SAFC.

I do have some suggestions if you don't mind. I would rewire the fuel pump when you do the installation and pick up some 650cc injectors because I'm sure you'll want to increase the boost later. The WBO2 isn't necessary and I didn't use one for years. I'm not saying it's not a good investment, because nothing beats a good wideband, but it's not mandatory. If you have the cash for one, awesome, if not, it can wait.

 

[Rengar18]

I tuned my Spyder for years with 650cc injectors using the SAFC-II and had a great tune. I was pushing 21psi with no problems. You'll be fine. Once you get ready to start, let me know and I'll walk you through the setup of the SAFC.

I do have some suggestions if you don't mind. I would rewire the fuel pump when you do the installation and pick up some 650cc injectors because I'm sure you'll want to increase the boost later. The WBO2 isn't necessary and I didn't use one for years. I'm not saying it's not a good investment, because nothing beats a good wideband, but it's not mandatory. If you have the cash for one, awesome, if not, it can wait.

It sounds like your trying to do a budget build and run around 20psi DD'ing? If so you don't need a 190/550's, if your on a budget you can get the same results by running an Evo FP and injectors and pay less than $100 for both. You'll want to spend your money on the WB and logger your going to need to tune with the SAFC.

You could install the SAFC and run 16psi safely on the stock fuel system (if the fp rewired) and you atleast had a WB installed so you can monitor your AFR's. Would it be worth it though, probably not... You could install the SAFC and just leave it zero'd out so its installed and ready when you do put the bigger injectors in though.

Heres some good NEW writeups that were done, wish I had them when I first building the car from stock...
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-tuning-ecu/366004-safc-tuning-how-why.html

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-tuning-ecu/366003-injector-fuel-pump-supported-airflow.html

The 14b is good for 34lbs/min. of airflow so you'll want to base your fuel support mods on that number. Stock Evo injectors are 510cc which would be right about perfect for your 14b setup and the same for the Evo FP rewired.

Thanks fellas, yea im on a bit of a budget, kinda ruled out a evo fp tbh, just to make sure though ill need a walbro install kit to put in the evo pump? Also just to make it clear it would run me about $300 to get a wideband 02 bought and installed right? What i've been told its a pita to install. Ill see if I can order a evo fp this week and probably install the afc this weekend while I have some time off. Have the soldering iron and shit still in the package waiting to be used.. Oh and I wont turn the boost up past 15 until I get some injectors/wideband for sure, just looking for a nice little increase with what i have.

And Gofer did you get a chance to make it to the Fontana On Sat? I'm actually the fellow you met last time rolling with the red honda that was gunna bring my eclipse. But alas electrical problems have plagued me these last few days. Still pretty much test driving it to make sure everything is running right....

 

[GTOJohnny67]

You need to have something to monitor air fuel ratios if your going to use the SAFC. So a WB or EGT gauge is necessary. I installed mine a with the stock injectors and played with it for about a month to get used to it before I threw in the bigger injectors. That way if I were to get way out of tune I could just zero it out and it would run like stock.

 

[gofer]

Thanks fellas, yea im on a bit of a budget, kinda ruled out a evo fp tbh, just to make sure though ill need a walbro install kit to put in the evo pump? Also just to make it clear it would run me about $300 to get a wideband 02 bought and installed right? What i've been told its a pita to install. Ill see if I can order a evo fp this week and probably install the afc this weekend while I have some time off. Have the soldering iron and shit still in the package waiting to be used.. Oh and I wont turn the boost up past 15 until I get some injectors/wideband for sure, just looking for a nice little increase with what i have.

And Gofer did you get a chance to make it to the Fontana On Sat? I'm actually the fellow you met last time rolling with the red honda that was gunna bring my eclipse. But alas electrical problems have plagued me these last few days. Still pretty much test driving it to make sure everything is running right....

You need to setup an account at SOCAL Evo & EvoM so you can search their classifieds and get Evo parts for cheap. You shouldn't pay more than $30 for a Evo IX fp and the same for the injectors. Check craigslist and the classifieds here for the stuff too, DON'T spend more than $100 for both the Evo injectors/fp combined.

A brand new AEM UEGO WB runs just over $200, used around $150 - $180. Install is easy, its getting the bung welded onto your downpipe that costs alittle bit extra. I installed my AEM UEGO and ran the wires then took my car to RRE and for $80 they fab'd up my HUGE cat delete dp and welded in the WB bung.

You can do the FP rewire to the stock pump too, its just wiring so if your bored just knock it out. The "install" kit for the fuel pump comes with nothing that you NEED its just fresh parts that are already on your 2g pump. You can just reuse the hardware thats already on the OEM pump.

No Fontana for me, still tweaking the E85/HTA68 tune and the car will be up on the dyno at RRE this Friday night...

 

[spyderturbo007]

You need to have something to monitor air fuel ratios if your going to use the SAFC. So a WB or EGT gauge is necessary.

No you don't. I ran for years without a WBO2 and had a beautiful tune. EGT gauges are worthless and tell you nothing about AFR's.

Too lean of an AFR and the EGT is going to read increased exhaust gas temps. Too rich of an AFR and the EGT is going to read increased temps because the fuel is still burning when entering the manifold.

Don't waste money on an EGT and although a WBO2 is nice and makes it easy for the "average Joe" to tune, it is by no means necessary.

 

[knochgoon24]

I actually used a WB02 and an SAFCII to help lean out the top end using when my car was stock. It made a difference detectable with the butt dyno

 

[Rengar18]

Ok thats what I figured. I still gotta pick up another downpipe as my 3" doesn't have a flex section. Def dont wanna weld a bung into that pos. Gotta wait a few more days to install the afc tho, alternator fus link is still getting extremely hot the longer I drive so I took it back to the auto electric place today. Doubt ill have it back by this weekend.. prob get it back around the same time the pump comes. So ill keep you guys posted.

Look forward to the dyno #s Corey!!

 

[GTOJohnny67]

No you don't. I ran for years without a WBO2 and had a beautiful tune. EGT gauges are worthless and tell you nothing about AFR's.

Too lean of an AFR and the EGT is going to read increased exhaust gas temps. Too rich of an AFR and the EGT is going to read increased temps because the fuel is still burning when entering the manifold.

Don't waste money on an EGT and although a WBO2 is nice and makes it easy for the "average Joe" to tune, it is by no means necessary.

First off, EGT gauges have been a proven method used for years, and are still used to this day on many vehicles. Every heard that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Second, I'm sure your tune was fine without the WB. But your a "wise man" So I think the OP "average joe" using a WB so he can tell whats going on with his car on the fly is probably alot safer. Unless you ride around with your laptop in your car all the time running evo scan.

Also how do you tune without it? Just going off knock counts?

 

[spyderturbo007]

First off, EGT gauges have been a proven method used for years, and are still used to this day on many vehicles. Every heard that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Here are a couple posts by Kevin Jewer that might explain things a little better.

Retarded timing will raise EGTs. So in effect, running lean still raises EGTs, but not for the right reasons. Also, running excessively rich will raise EGTs due to fuel still burning as it leaves the motor and passes the sensor. Retarded timing raises EGTs the same way. AFR will affect EGT, but to a small degree. The large swings people report are all from ignition timing changes.

I have learned by experience that tuning by EGT is completely useless. But if you must, the rule of thumb is ~1600 F or 900C. But like I have posted a thousand times in the past, EGT only tells you your ignition timing, which can more accurately be read from a datalogger. And I have had no knock at 950+ C and have knocked like hell at 850C. Depends on fuel settings, mod list, etc. Plus thermocouples usually fail on the low side, which is obviously bad.

I will repeat what I said in my last post again. EGT tells you your ignition timing. If it gets too hot you are knocking. Knock is what kills parts, not high temperatures. Also, an overly rich mixture will leave fuel burning in the manifold which will register a high EGT temp, but your engine is perfectly safe. I cant count how many times I have seen poeple keep dumping in more and more fuel and EGT doesnt come down. Again, its not a very useful tuning tool. Unles you know the implications of tuning by it, and how everything is related. I alsways hear about how parts melt when EGT gets too high, etc. Well, combustion temps are more than twice as hot as your EGT temps, so there goes that theory The temp fo the gasses has nothing to do with tuning in our case, but what it says about timing does. Just be sure you know how to accurately translate a EGT value into a timing value.

The bottom line is I have tuned with everything from AF ratio and EGT gauge, to pocketlogger (2g), and DSMlink. So I can see what the readings from the EGT guage and AF guage really mean. And the answer is nothing. I could go on for pages with data and numbers, but no one bother to listen Anyone can do a search and find this in dozens of threads.

Second, I'm sure your tune was fine without the WB. But your a "wise man" So I think the OP "average joe" using a WB so he can tell whats going on with his car on the fly is probably alot safer. Unless you ride around with your laptop in your car all the time running evo scan.

I wasn't when I initially tuned my car. I just did a lot of reading and asked a lot of questions. Besides, we are here to assist him/her with the tune when they get ready to start.

Once your tune is set, unless something changes, you don't have to ride around with the laptop. The ECU will take care of changes in barometric pressure, IAT, failing sensors, etc. It's a good idea to make a pull every once in awhile, but it's not necessary. Plus, just because you are getting a consistent 11:1 AFR, doesn't mean you aren't knocking, so either way, you need to look at some logs.

I've personally seen some people knock like crazy at 10.5:1 and other guys can run 11.5:1 with no knock. So tuning by AFR only is not a good idea either.

Also how do you tune without it? Just going off knock counts?

You want to take a look at airflow, IAT and coolant temp. Cross reference those values with the ECU's target timing and compare to the actual timing value. This will determine knock count. You can mathematically estimate AFR based on the SAFC correction factor and lean or richen things up to your liking.

 

[GTOJohnny67]

Ok Spyderturbo077, that makes alot more sense to me now.
I just remember before WB where redly available, every one ran narrow band and EGT. I know diesels still use EGTs all the time.
I like havingmy WB because it lets me know that my fuel system is running properly at a glance.
When I was tuning with only the WB I did find out I was get 14 counts of knock and at that point started logging also.

 

[spyderturbo007]

Ok Spyderturbo077, that makes alot more sense to me now.

Kevin has the ability to explain things better than I do sometimes, that's why I like to use his posts.

I like havingmy WB because it lets me know that my fuel system is running properly at a glance.

I agree with that one 100%. It's an easy way to keep an eye on AFR's and I do recommend a WBO2. I was just discounting the fact that it's necessary. It's a wonderful addition to any tuning setup, but a logger is absolutely necessary.

When I was tuning with only the WB I did find out I was get 14 counts of knock and at that point started logging also.

See, I told you so.

 

[gofer]

I've personally seen some people knock like crazy at 10.5:1 and other guys can run 11.5:1 with no knock.

I can vouge for Nathan on this. I was running 11.0 ~ 11.3:1 AFR's on 91 octane and 12* timing advance after a dyno tune running stock cams and didn't see any knock. After I installed my FP2 cams I had to richen up my AFR's to 10.3 ~ 10.5:1 AFR's on 91 octane and pull timing to 5* advance to get rid of knock... RIDICULOUS.

I recently converted to E85 so I'm at 12.3 ~ 12.5:1 AFR's and 18* of timing advance with boost turned up 5psi from before and I still can't get it to knock.