Replacing rings after 4k miles

[AMS stampy]

1fast97gsx, sounds shitty but I would really look into that turbo being the cause of the blue smoke. I hope that isnt the case but all signs are pointing there

congrats on the compression numbers too

Eric

 

[burldude]

So it is breaking in ? Sounds good and I would have to say those numbers are decent if not right on the money . Blue smoke is still burning oil . Under wot , could be a number of different things . Check your plugs for signs of fouling and look down in the combustion chamber and see what the pistons look like . I would also be concerned with the valve guides and seals . If you already have another head, rebuild it and slap it on .

 

[1fast97gsx]

So it is breaking in ? Sounds good and I would have to say those numbers are decent if not right on the money . Blue smoke is still burning oil . Under wot , could be a number of different things . Check your plugs for signs of fouling and look down in the combustion chamber and see what the pistons look like . I would also be concerned with the valve guides and seals . If you already have another head, rebuild it and slap it on .

Yes I'm actually working on the other head as we speak and hopefully that will fix my smoking problem. I found a nasty oil return line leak and I was leaking oil out of the middle stud that holds the exhaust manifold ... as for the burning of oil ( blue smoke ) ... I'm leaning towards something valve related since it didn't start until I started reving to 7500+. The turbo only has 4000 miles on it but I'd like to still be safe. Any idea how long precisions warranty period is if any?

 

[heavyD]

Read my post, it's switching from synthetic back to regular.

Ugh. Sorry. Ditto....

 

[1fast97gsx]

YOu hsould just sell the ####ing car, you have too many problems with it, moda####a always strives to make it to dsm meet but cant, if you do take apart your engine though, show me how its done, i wanna see first hand, thanks.

selling it has been considered numerous times .. I had it in the classifieds and kept getting emails from idiots asking me to part it out and nobody serious enough about buying the car as it sits. So I said screw it and got more mods.

Engine and trans are out now ... new record of only 5 hours

 

[ITSME4G63]

selling it has been considered numerous times .. I had it in the classifieds and kept getting emails from idiots asking me to part it out and nobody serious enough about buying the car as it sits. So I said screw it and got more mods.

Engine and trans are out now ... new record of only 5 hours

SHow me how to work on the shit!

 

[1fast97gsx]

SHow me how to work on the shit!

What do you need to know? I have the motor in the stand right now and one of these days I'm gonna take it apart ... I decided to replace the oil pump, water pump, alternator, and all that good stuff as well

 

[AMS stampy]

as a precision dealer I can tell you that their warranty is done on a case by case basis. so long as it isnt a neglence problem and its within a year they will usually take care of you. just check for shaft play. 9/10 blue smoke under WOT at the shop points to the turbo.

Eric

 

[1fast97gsx]

ok I will call precision tomorrow... thanks

 

[pinknuggit]

All this stuff about breaking in. Your engine isn't going to get anymore broken in after about 50 miles or so.

If your rings are at fault at 3700 miles, i'd suspect that they aren't gapped right or they didn't seal properly. How did you break the motor in?

All you need to do to break a motor in is idle it at about 3k for about 10 mins, then vary betweek 1k and 2k for about another 10.
Then take it out for a drive, do about ten 3rd gear pulls at about 75% throttle while each time letting the engine slow the car down.

After that, your engine will be as broken in as it will ever be.


I'd do a leakdown test to determine where you're burning oil. More than likely it's either your turbo or your valve seats.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

Since you had not use a torqueplate did you have the the piston to wall clearance upped?

The block was machined using the specs provided by Wiseco. Don't ask me what they are, I don't know. I handed my machinest a sheet of paper, he worked his magic.

On a side note, I ran another compression check tonight, after fixing the timing (since the first comp check above), and putting it's first 750 miles on it (since the first test was after 15min idle on the motor). Blew 210 across the board, 9:1 Wiseco's.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

All this stuff about breaking in. Your engine isn't going to get anymore broken in after about 50 miles or so.

If your rings are at fault at 3700 miles, i'd suspect that they aren't gapped right or they didn't seal properly. How did you break the motor in?

All you need to do to break a motor in is idle it at about 3k for about 10 mins, then vary betweek 1k and 2k for about another 10.
Then take it out for a drive, do about ten 3rd gear pulls at about 75% throttle while each time letting the engine slow the car down.

After that, your engine will be as broken in as it will ever be.


I'd do a leakdown test to determine where you're burning oil. More than likely it's either your turbo or your valve seats.

And I suppose your formula for breaking in clutches is just to take it up to about 75 on a highway and slip it out a few times in fifth?

 

[burldude]

All this stuff about breaking in. Your engine isn't going to get anymore broken in after about 50 miles or so.

If your rings are at fault at 3700 miles, i'd suspect that they aren't gapped right or they didn't seal properly. How did you break the motor in?

All you need to do to break a motor in is idle it at about 3k for about 10 mins, then vary betweek 1k and 2k for about another 10.
Then take it out for a drive, do about ten 3rd gear pulls at about 75% throttle while each time letting the engine slow the car down.

After that, your engine will be as broken in as it will ever be.


I'd do a leakdown test to determine where you're burning oil. More than likely it's either your turbo or your valve seats.

:laugh: What a great way to start the morning :laugh: I need one of them laughing in hysterics rolling on its side smiley face

 

[1fast97gsx]

actually I do agree with how the engine breaks in almost instantly. I always heard to just start it and let it idle until it's fully warmed up. Then take it for a 20 mile drive being sure to vary your speeds and put load on the engine. Then change your oil after 200 and that's it. Then switch to synthetic down the road ....

210 compression seems high for 9:1 ... did you have the block and head both decked? What thickness headgasket?

 

[pinknuggit]

Thanks for agreeing with me 1fast97gsx. It seems that everyone else breaks their motor in the way that they've "Heard" to do it and not the way they have been doing it all their life.

Don't look at my post as arguing, look at it as educating.

Alot of people will tell you how to do it, but that doesn't mean that it's the most efficient way to do it. You need vacuum to slip oil past the rings as to help them seat. Period. For all of you who haven't been building motors your whole life like I have, The breakin procedure i described is how builders have been doing it since the 1960's!!!!!! You can't argue with what works. People will say to take it easy but they only say that because they are afraid of breaking something in their new motor. A hone brush makes little peaks in your cylinder wall. The object of those peaks is to file the contact surface of the rings so that they will seal against the wall. If you are easy on your engine, you will wear down the peaks without your rings getting seated. This is why you need to be hard on it. You need cylinder pressure to press the rings into the crosshatch enough to actually form the rings to the wall.

Look at it like sanding. Let's say you have a spot of paint on a piece of wood and you need to sand it off. So you break out the 80 grit sand paper.
Imagine the piece of wood as the rings and the sandpaper as the Cylinder wall.
-If you lightly sand on the paint spot and barely put any pressure on it, you will not be able to get the paint spot off before your sandpaper starts to wear out. In the end, you still have a spot and you don't have anymore sandpaper. This is the same principle as if you break in your motor easy.
-If you sand hard on the wood spot and put alot of pressure on it, it will take the paint spot off and you will be able to remove the paint spot before your sandpaper wears out. This is the same principle as if you break in your motor hard.

Here's a few good websites to read concerning the right way to break a motor in.
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116788

Read what Taboo says in the DSM talk thread. Taboo has obviously been doing this alot since he owns his own shop with great success.

Burldude: i suggest you learn the right way to do things by experience before you start lauging on Proven break in methods that have been in use since the 60's. Despite what you obviously think, there are alot of things about cars that you obviously don't know.

Mirage2Lturbo: No one said anything about a clutch? i don't know where you got that from?? I don't know much about clutches and their break in on a DSM or any fwd car with small clutches. I know that heat is what is bad for a clutch, and that as long as you have enough clamping force for your engine's power, that you will not slip the clutch when you get on it. If you're breaking your new race motor in on a stock clutch, i'd worry about that, but as long as your clutch can hold the power your engine makes then burning your clutch on breakup is the least if your worries. Try to stay on topic here, you can learn alot of good information from my post.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

actually I do agree with how the engine breaks in almost instantly. I always heard to just start it and let it idle until it's fully warmed up. Then take it for a 20 mile drive being sure to vary your speeds and put load on the engine. Then change your oil after 200 and that's it. Then switch to synthetic down the road ....

210 compression seems high for 9:1 ... did you have the block and head both decked? What thickness headgasket?

The head was machined for a metal head gasket, and the block was decked because dipshit Ken Bacon decided to use a medium grit sandpaper to clean off gasket material (we traded blocks + cash/parts, he didn't build mine). I'm running a Cometic standard, not HP, gasket.

If reeming on your car is the best way to break it in, then why is it that I have personally seen cars that get reemed on as they leave the shop and come back with blown front mains, head gaskets, and bad compression/blow by because the rings did not seat properly. You mentioned above filing the rings to get them to seal, are you a big dang ol V8 guy? We don't sprinkle Comet into our engines to help them seal.. I'm no expert, but if you have iron blocks, forged pistons and iron rings, the engineering behind breaking one in might be different than noe with different parts.

 

[pinknuggit]

Holy crap.

You saw cars that got reemed on blow main seals and head gaskets because of Builder Error. If you incorrectly build an engine, it will break. That shop obviously doesn't know what they are doing. If something like Rear mains and Head gaksets are going to fail on an engine, they're going to fail no matter what kind of load you put on the engine! If your rear main blows because you put a load on the engine, then you've got serious problems!
A hard breakin isn't going to compromise the integrity of your internals. Your engine internals and seals aren't going to get stronger the more you use your engine!! haha!!
Yeah, you can blow seals, but the seals would have blown if you did an easy break in because they are dependant on Heat Cycles of your engine. Hard breakin has no affect on that.
HAHAHAH!!!! you thought i meant to literally file the rings !! haha! No, the cylinder wall Acts as a file on the rings.. hahaha... Yeah, i'm a dang 'ol v8 guy and things on my dang ol v8's are in no way different than your little wingy dingy 4 cylinder cars! Things work the same! I don't sprinkle comet into my engines, but i Do spray my clinder walls down with WD40.
You're right, you're obviously not an expert. There is no way possible that the break-in could be different if you have forged pistons and iron rings. Hell the break in is the same for cast iron and aluminum blocks, and also for iron, chrome moly rings. What's so different about that? My dang ol v8's have iron blocks, cast rings, and forged pistons too. hahaha

Go read those sites i posted and maybe you can understand it a little bit better since no one wants to listen to what i have to say.
I'm not an expert, but i go with the techniques that are PROVEN TO WORK since before you were born. haha!!

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

But the seal or gasket is fixed, baby the car around for 500 miles or somewhere in that region, and they are fine. Or what about freshly built engines that burn oil for a couple hundred miles till the rings seal up?

 

[1fast97gsx]

But the seal or gasket is fixed, baby the car around for 500 miles or somewhere in that region, and they are fine. Or what about freshly built engines that burn oil for a couple hundred miles till the rings seal up?

I don't think a properly built engine should burn oil ... as stated before engines "break in" within a matter of minutes. The old fashioned break in term people use today should be more understood as check the car for any leaks during this period. I'm a believer that you can go to the trackthe same day the engine is assembled .. but for the first 500 miles or so you should keep an eye on the timing area and by the flywheel inspection cover for front / rear main seal leaks or any other types of leaks. The actual rings and bearings should be ok.

 

[pinknuggit]

That's the reason why the oil burns is because the rings aren't 100% sealed up.
After the seals are fixed, they should not leak again even if you are hard on your engine. like i said, gaskets and what not are dependant on the heat cycles of your engine. Beat on the engine when it's not warmed up and you can blow gaskets.


I'm not going to post on this topic anymore.

 

[1fast97gsx]

That's the reason why the oil burns is because the rings aren't 100% sealed up.
After the seals are fixed, they should not leak again even if you are hard on your engine.

Right .. but they should seal up pretty quickly so burning oil should never be an issue. ( at least not to the point where it's a noticeable amount )

 

[pinknuggit]

yeah.. the majority of the seal happens the first few miles, but the rings won't be absolutely 100% sealed till you get about 50 or so miles. like you said, it won't be noticeable.

 

[burldude]

Burldude: i suggest you learn the right way to do things by experience before you start lauging on Proven break in methods that have been in use since the 60's. Despite what you obviously think, there are alot of things about cars that you obviously don't know. :thumbdown

Pinknuggit ,hmm, Your not right are you, but enough about you . If you look at the 4th post and the 18th you can see that compression numbers have gotten better with more miles put on the car.
pinknuggit
Yeah, i'm a dang 'ol v8 guy and things on my dang ol v8's are in no way different than your little wingy dingy 4 cylinder cars!

Hmm, v8 high tension rings are the same as low tension 4cylinder rings ?

pinknuggit
but the rings won't be absolutely 100% sealed till you get about 50 or so miles. like you said, it won't be noticeable.

Wont be 100 % sealed up for 50 miles ? What rings seal 100% ?

pinknuggit
like i said, gaskets and what not are dependant on the heat cycles of your engine. Beat on the engine when it's not warmed up and you can blow gaskets.

Heat cycling doesnt affect gasket seal? Hmm then I guess a head gasket adhears to the block on the initial startup and doesnt setup with repeated heat cycles . This does not apply as much with metal head gaskets. The only thing that you gave some what correct info on is the "break in procedure" which I dont entirely agree with .

Burldude: i suggest you learn the right way to do things by experience before you start lauging on Proven break in methods that have been in use since the 60's. Despite what you obviously think, there are alot of things about cars that you obviously don't know.


Well I never even gave any advice on break in or said anything about what procedure to use . So I hope that you can give correct info from now on . You sound old and tired and I hope not to offend you but you'r one comment says enough for me . I quote "I'm not an expert". You have said you not one so please dont try to give advise like one .

 

[pinknuggit]

1. I coud care less about if his compression numbers got better the more miles he had on his car. The ridges in the cylinder walls are going to be Worn down enough to not have an affect on the rings after about 50 miles or so anyways. So your point is NOT VALID.

2. high tension and low tension rings are not the same, right. BUT THEY BREAK IN THE SAME. The gas pressure from hard acceleration forces the rings to contact the cylinder around their entire circumference. This is true for practically every 4 cycle engine in existance from air compressors to bikes to snowmobiles and even Autos!

3. ok so maybe they won't be 100% sealed up. 100% was a number that popped out of my head for clarification on the point i was trying to convey to 1fast97gsx. If it's not exactly 100%, an engine with a good ring seal is DAMN CLOSE to it.

4. You can't read. "Like i said, Gaskets and What Not are dependant on the heat cycles of our engines." What Not takes the form of a noun and is used widely in this manner all over the states! Let's substitute "Noun" for "What not" and look at that sentence again.
"Like i said, Gaskets and Noun are dependant on the heat cycles of our engines."
now let's take the conjunction "and" and "noun", which it modifies, out of the sentence and read it again.
"Like i said, Gaskets are dependant on the heat cycles of our engines."


no, i'll admit i'm not an expert. I do have lots of experience building engines and BREAKING THEM IN. If a mechanic (let's say you) doesn't even know the proper way to break a motor in, then there's no telling what else he doesn't know!! That's one of the first things I learned! If you don't know the dynamics of how an engine breaks in, then what is telling me that you know how an engine works?
I'm not old and tired, i'm just sick of people trying to shoot me down because they think their way is the right way, when it's really not.
So you can step down off the high horse, because unless you can do as good of a job as i have of EXPLAINING what to do and EXPLAINING the reasoning and EXPLAINING the technicality behind what i EXPLAIN (am i going to have to break this sentence down like the one above for you?), then please be quiet and don't LAUGH at other people's advice without giving your own.
"Answer the question, link the answer, or don't reply". It says that every time you post a reply to a topic.