Replaced Head Gasket gone on start up

[Reject]

Okay, So I have been in the process of changing the girlfriend's head gasket on a 97 ESi. Got everything torn apart, had the head decked. Cleaned off the block with a light scotch-brite treatment and gasket remover. Carb cleaned it again. Slapped everything back together.

Started with an antifreeze leak from the drivers side firewall side of the engine. After reassembly I have an oil leak on the passenger's firewall side.

Any ideas why this would be?

I followed all torque specs... I changed every gasket along the way... The engine fired right up after completion... it just has an oil leak now in a different spot..

Am I going to be doing this all over again?

 

[Nick2gGST]

im not that smart of a mechanic, but if i was to take a guess it would be perhaps you didnt follow torque specs and patterns on the head? maybe somehow it didnt get a good seal, or the head could be warped.

 

[Reject]

Yeah, I'm sorry, but does anyone else have an idea? I torqued them in sequence, 50ft/lbs on the out sides 25ftlbs on the inside bolts, the head was decked...

anything?

 

[rush2252]

perform a leakdown. It sounds like you have valvetrain issues =]

 

[joe sobo]

you need to search, but im sure that the torque spec. is higher than that

 

[Jeff99GS]

Ahh yes the good ole 420a head gasket failure. Did you get new head bolts??

If NOT then you need new Head bolts or studs and a new head gasket and you will be all set.
The 420a should have really had a recall on the Head gasket. I bought my GS NEW in 1999 and the HG went bad 2 years later ad 45,000 miles. The mechanic told me the head bolts chysler made were a few milli meters too long. So what happened was the bolt was bottoming out in the hole before it had a chance to apply full torque.

Get NEW bolts. You should do that anyway when doing the Head gasket....Unless it has ARP's or something re-usable

And for christs sake your NOT torquing right... Head torque is never different on any part of the head...that would cause warping.

You need to torque them ALL to 25 ft lbs..... THEN torque them all to 50 ft lbs.... Then torque them ALL again to like 75-80 ft lbs and make sure you do it in the right order from the middle working OUT.

 

[ilco187]

1. Torque all center bolts to 25 ft-lbs, torque the 4 corner bolts to 25 ft-lbs
2. Torque all center bolts to 50 ft-lbs, torque the 4 corner bolts to 50 ft-lbs
3. Re-Torque all center bolts to 50 ft-lbs, re-torque the 4 corner bolts to 50 ft-lbs
4. Tighten all bolts in the sequence from #1-#10 an additional 1/4 turn.

That is how it should be torqued.

 

[Forsaken_1]

This is my car, so I'll explain in detail EVERYTHING so I don't get the obvious advise.

I bought the car with 101,000 Miles, and I was leaking oil out the back near the firewall on the driver's side, verified by a mechanic. Pulled the head off, and it happened that the head was warped, the gasket was not blown. Brought the head in, got it resurfaced, and bought the whole "don't do a jack job" kit. Head gasket set - included all the gaskets for the top end; bought the head bolts, knowing that they are stretch bolts; and everything else fun. Timing belt, water pump, etc. Also bought the haynes repair manual and double checked on the forums the torque spec and order.

We followed the instructions, consulting the forums with any concerns, and got the thing running with only a few problems with the oil filter and such (old seal didn't come off with the old oil filter we quickly discovered.)

Now I'm leaking oil out the rear, near the firewall, on the PASSENGER side. It looks to be below the valve cover but above the head gasket. The only thing I think it could be leaking from is the cam seal, head gasket, or valve cover gasket. We did, however take off the valve cover and made sure everything with the cams were torqued and replaced the valve cover once again. Any new suggestions??

The sum of the obvious - All new gaskets, machined head, 101, miles with no valve train issues, followed torque spec and sequence.

 

[Jeff99GS]

Yeah the 1/4 turn ends up being about 70-80 pounds of torque. You cant torque with your eyes. So I don't like to go by 1/4 turns.


Also make sure you're using some kind of Moly Lube or at least 10w30 oil to coat the threads of the bolt before you install them. If not then your torque figures will be way off.

Did you check the Block for cracks?
Did you Do a leakdown test to see if it is even the Head gasket leaking?
Did you do a compression test? what are the results?

 

[Forsaken_1]

Ahh yes the good ole 420a head gasket failure. Did you get new head bolts??

If NOT then you need new Head bolts or studs and a new head gasket and you will be all set.
The 420a should have really had a recall on the Head gasket. I bought my GS NEW in 1999 and the HG went bad 2 years later ad 45,000 miles. The mechanic told me the head bolts chysler made were a few milli meters too long. So what happened was the bolt was bottoming out in the hole before it had a chance to apply full torque.

Get NEW bolts. You should do that anyway when doing the Head gasket....Unless it has ARP's or something re-usable

And for christs sake your NOT torquing right... Head torque is never different on any part of the head...that would cause warping.

You need to torque them ALL to 25 ft lbs..... THEN torque them all to 50 ft lbs.... Then torque them ALL again to like 75-80 ft lbs and make sure you do it in the right order from the middle working OUT.

Posted by DarkOne

1. TORQUE ALL CENTER BOLTS TO 34 NM (25 FT LBS.), TORQUE THE 4 CORNER BOLTS TO 27 NM (20 FT LBS.).

2. TORQUE ALL CENTER BOLTS TO 68 NM (50 FT LBS.), TORQUE THE 4 CORNER BOLTS TO 47 NM (35 FT LBS.).

3. RE-TORQUE ALL CENTER BOLTS TO 68 NM (50 FT LBS.), TORQUE THE 4 CORNER BOLTS TO 47 NM (35 FT LBS.).

4. TIGHTEN ALL BOLTS IN THE SPECIFIED SEQUENCE AN ADDITIONAL 1/4 TURN.

Make sure you use the correct sequence. The center two bolts are 1&2, the ones to the right of them are 3&4, the pair to the left of center are 5&6, bounce to the other side, 7&8, etc, etc. Torque sequence is 1-10, in that pattern.




Haynes manual also says that the outer 4 corners should be torqued less then the center bolts... So this is probably where the issue lies. But who am I to take the advise of? Do I take the chance of overriding the professional repair manual and over torquing the outer bolts or can someone find me good enough proof saying that all bolts are to be torqued at the same ft lbs? Not trying to be condescending in any way, but I've heard through friends that some of the helpful hands on forums are uninformed... I'm one for experiments but not on such an expensive project... has anyone had experience with the haynes manual being wrong??

 

[Forsaken_1]

Compression was good. Block had no cracks. Please remember that the ORIGINAL problem was a warped head, got that take care of, and now I'm leaking from SOMEWHERE on the opposite side... Everything that was fine before is still very well fine. Valves, block, compression.

 

[ilco187]

But who am I to take the advise of? Do I take the chance of overriding the professional repair manual and over torquing the outer bolts or can someone find me good enough proof saying that all bolts are to be torqued at the same ft lbs?

i would say take advise from the 420a forum and search for head and such and look for best torque specs as most or all of most have rebuilt 420a's and 4g63's so i think the forum would be more sufficient info.

you can also search DSMTALK.COM

 

[Jeff99GS]

Haynes manual also says that the outer 4 corners should be torqued less then the center bolts... So this is probably where the issue lies. But who am I to take the advise of? Do I take the chance of overriding the professional repair manual and over torquing the outer bolts or can someone find me good enough proof saying that all bolts are to be torqued at the same ft lbs? Not trying to be condescending in any way, but I've heard through friends that some of the helpful hands on forums are uninformed... I'm one for experiments but not on such an expensive project... has anyone had experience with the haynes manual being wrong??

The reason they state lower torque numbers for the outside bolts is because they are shorter and supposedly need less torque. If you really want good info get a FSM Factory Service Manual. Or get the FSM on disc. Ebay has it for like 8 bucks!

I had great success with the method I have stated.

Have the block surface checked. Obviously you over heated the car. It is Not often that Iron blocks warp but its NOT impossible. You should check the deck surface with an extreme straight edge and a .001 feeler gauge. Or send it to a machine shop. It could still be a cracked block. The only real way to tell is Magnaflux it.

Also you never answered me...DID you guys use moly lube or Oil on the head bolt threads??

go to 2gnt.com

 

[rush2252]

Double check the VC gasket. If you didnt use a little RTV to keep it in place it will SPRAY oil out of the VC sometimes. I had one installed and the gasket partially fell out of the channel on the VC and it did this. It sprayed all over the firewall. I removed the vc cleaned the gasket with soap and water and used a few dabs of RTV to hold it in place when I reinstalled...

 

[Reject]

Yeah, The head was ALREADY resurfaced by a machine shop. I assume that it was decked correctly. The bolt WERE dipped in clean oil. It is not the valve cover. I reseated it and wiped off any oil that was spilled / leaked. That part looks fine...

 

[BogusSVO]

what kind of machine what the head surfaced on?
There are several diffrent surfacers out, NOT all of them do a good job.
So there may be still issues with the deck surface on the head.

 

[Reject]

Shit, I don't know... I dropped it off at a local machine shop that had heads laying around like they were peices of paper with an old biker looking guy with a bad attitude. Seemed like a safe bet...

Usually the grumpiest mechanics / laborers do the best job.... or atleast in my experiance...

 

[BogusSVO]

you may want to read through this post I did.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/new...face-4g63t-cylinder-head-mls-head-gasket.html

This is also a good write up of machine work in general, read the parts on "types of equipment" and "Surfacing"
Thanks to Big Woo!

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/303225-engine-machine-work-explained.html

 

[Reject]

From the looks of it, I am going to assume that was how it was done. He said something about that he took two swipes at it with .001 lower with each. I had NO idea what he was talking about so I just smiled and handed him $50. I guess I could be wrong, but I believe that he know what he was talking about.

I took a straight edge to the head when I got it back an I couldn't find one section that wasn't completely flat...

 

[BogusSVO]

how did you clean the bolck deck?
Also did you use a composite or MLS head gasket?
If all he had to do is a total of .002 to clean the deck of the head then the head should be in good shape.
but the head deck whas shiney, not a dull flat color?

 

[Reject]

Used an MLS gasket for replacement.
The block side was shiny, like the inside of a pop can.
The block was hot tanked for cleaning by them
and I got some smudges on it, so I cleaned it again with carb cleaner.

 

[BogusSVO]

From what I have read about what you have done, the only thing I can think of that is left is a block flaw of some sort that will not let the MLS gasket seal.