replaced engine, now no spark?

[Junkyardspecial]

I just completed an engine swap. The new motor has great compression 160 across the board and about 60k miles. I had it set at tdc when inserting my CAS I had the indents lined correct. I get fuel and the engine will crank all day and sounds great but has no spark whatsoever. Plugs are good wires are new and I tried two coil packs. Transitor is plugged in and all wires are connected. I have a friend mechanic looking tomorrow. But anything I can check now?

 

[BoostedBen]

Switch the coil with a different coil, switch the ignitor with a known good one, try flipping the cas. Make sure your firing order is correct.

It sounds like you may have timed one cam 180* out, or the cas is timed 180* out.

Have you actually checked spark by arcing the wires with a screw driver?

 

[CanadianTalonTC]

Switch the coil with a different coil, switch the ignitor with a known good one, try flipping the cas. Make sure your firing order is correct.

It sounds like you may have timed one cam 180* out, or the cas is timed 180* out.

Have you actually checked spark by arcing the wires with a screw driver?

An easier way is to simply hold a plug against a ground while attached to the plug wire and see if it sparks.

Joel

 

[2g4me]

Troubleshoot CPS and ASD (auto shut down) relay too, if either the CAS or CPS isnt working the ASD relay (if good) will shut the entire system down.

 

[Junkyardspecial]

I've tried flipping cas and tried two coils with nothing. I've also tried arcing the wires and there is no spark either. How do I troubleshoot the ASD?

 

[2g4me]

Im not sure of a way to actually "test" it, if you've replaced the CPS and CAS and still not working, chances are the ASD relay is bad or even possibly a bad ECU. My old talon had the same problem, no spark and whatnot, after replacing the 2 sensors, coils, plugs and wires it still wouldnt work. After a huge amount of frustration and a new windshield after throwin my ratchet, I replaced the ASD relay and it fired right up.

You said u just did a motor swap too so make sure everything is securely connected also.

 

[Junkyardspecial]

Im not sure of a way to actually "test" it, if you've replaced the CPS and CAS and still not working, chances are the ASD relay is bad or even possibly a bad ECU. My old talon had the same problem, no spark and whatnot, after replacing the 2 sensors, coils, plugs and wires it still wouldnt work. After a huge amount of frustration and a new windshield after throwin my ratchet, I replaced the ASD relay and it fired right up.

You said u just did a motor swap too so make sure everything is securely connected also.

I'm at work ill be double checkin this tomorrow. Its just super frustrating.

 

[steve]

Before swapping any more parts start with the basics.

Check to see if your CEL turns on for five seconds and then turns off and that the boost gauge moves to 0 then to -7 while cranking. Then make sure that the ECU is getting power and runs long enough to turn the CEL on and off.

Make sure you didn't swap any connectors, there are a couple like the ISC and resistor pack that are in the same general area and use the same connector.

The CAS gets 12v, ground and pulls the TDC and CAS signals from 5v to ground as it is rotated. The 90 CAS usually have brittle wires from age and heat and can break right where they exit the body. Pulled from the head you can turn it by hand with the ignition on and measure the voltages on the signal lines to see if they are pulsing.

The coils are connected to the power transistor and 12v. The transistor pulls it end to ground to charge the coil and the pair of plugs fire when the transistor switches off. Again that's something you can measure with a voltmeter when you're turning the CAS by hand. You should also be able to hear the injectors fire.

If the capacitors in your ECU haven't been replaced, they can fail when you remove power and then power it back up. If they are original, they need to be replaced even if your ECU is working.

There isn't a ASD relay in the turbo cars. The closest thing is the MPI relay. It gets power from the MPI fuse and switches it for the ECU, and most of the engine bay under control of the ECU.

 

[2g4me]

Before swapping any more parts start with the basics.

Check to see if your CEL turns on for five seconds and then turns off and that the boost gauge moves to 0 then to -7 while cranking. That make sure that the ECU is getting powe and runs long enough to turn the CEL on and off.

Make sure you didn't swap any connectors, there are a couple like the ISC and resistor pack that are in the same general area and use the same connector.

The CAS gets 12v, ground and pulls the TDC and CAS signals from 5v to ground as it is rotated. The 90 CAS usually have brittle wires from age and heat and can break right where they exit the body. Pulled from the head you can turn it by hand with the ignition on and measure the voltages on the signal lines to see if they are pulsing.

The coils are connected to the power transistor and 12v. The transistor pulls it end to ground to charge the coil and the pair of plugs fire when the transistor switches off. Again that's something you can measure with a voltmeter when you're turning the CAS by hand. You should also be able to hear the injectors fire.

If the capacitors in your ECU haven't been replaced, the can fail when you remove power and then power it back up. If they are original, they need to be replaced even if your ECU is working.

There isn't a ASD relay in the turbo cars. The closest thing is the MPI relay. It gets power from the MPI fuse and switches it for the ECU, and most of the engine bay under control of the ECU.

Wow, 1/2 of this doesnt make any sense, incomplete sentences, horrible grammar, incomplete words and a lot that has nothing to do with his issues. As for the ECU, WHY would you "fix" it if it's not broke?? that's stupid! There is a relay that will shut the ignition system down on the turbo cars, I called it a ASD relay ### it does the same thing, it sits under the ECU bolted to the body all connected with the engine harness. Had i not looked at your side info and seen your tech posts, i would have easily guessed you were a noob. If your gonna try helping, at least make sense.

 

[steve]

Wow, 1/2 of this doesnt make any sense, incomplete sentences, horrible grammar, incomplete words and a lot that has nothing to do with his issues.

As for the ECU, WHY would you "fix" it if it's not broke?? that's stupid!

There is a relay that will shut the ignition system down on the turbo cars, I called it a ASD relay ### it does the same thing, it sits under the ECU bolted to the body all connected with the engine harness.

Had i not looked at your side info and seen your tech posts, i would have easily guessed you were a noob. If your gonna try helping, at least make sense.

Sorry you can't make sense of my post. I only found 2 typos which isn't bad for 2am. It's the ECU that turns off the fuel pump side of the MPI relay when it doesn't see CAS pulses. Nothing that turns shuts entire system down.

 

[2g4me]

Sorry you can't make sense of my post. I only found 2 typos which isn't bad for 2am. It's the ECU that turns off the fuel pump side of the MPI relay when it doesn't see CAS pulses. Nothing that turns shuts entire system down.

He said hes getting fuel, hes not getting spark which would lead to either a bad crank sensor or cam sensor (in most cases), maybe a bad coil or power transister unit but unlikely. Pretty much everything you rambled on about was referring to not getting fuel which, again, he is.

If either the cam or crank sensor doesnt send the ECU a signal or the correct signal, it shuts the ignition system down (no spark), it does this check the second you turn the key to the on position before you start it. If hes getting fuel theres no reason to check the fuel system. And to reiterate, if the ECU is good, theres no reason to "fix" it.

 

[steve]

Pretty much everything you rambled on about was referring to not getting fuel which, again, he is.

Most of what I "rambled on about" what how to verify that the ECU was working and how to test the parts related to the ignition system. But you already said it went over your head. The OP has a 1G, it doesn't have a ASD relay or individual crank and cam sensors. It has an MPI relay and single CAS mounted on the trans side of the intake cam.

If either the cam or crank sensor doesnt send the ECU a signal or the correct signal, it shuts the ignition system down (no spark), it does this check the second you turn the key to the on position before you start it. If hes getting fuel theres no reason to check the fuel system. And to reiterate, if the ECU is good, theres no reason to "fix" it.

The ECU doesn't even know if the CAS is working until you start cranking the engine. I've read the ECU code, I know what it does when you turn the power on and the can't check "the second you turn the key to the on position".

The 1G ECUs all have a common problem, the capacitor leak out their electrolyte and it corrodes the circuit board. If it has happened yet, it will or the capacitor filtering the 12v input will go dry and short, burning up the board. You want to address the issue before it happens for several good reasons, like saving your ECU and not being stranded.

I'll be happy to let you try and help our friend out but you should try to refer to the correct parts and not make things up when you don't know. Looking at your posts I've noted you have an attitude problem. I'm not interested in dealing with it.

Until the OP has something else to add, there is nothing to see here.

 

[2g4me]

Most of what I "rambled on about" what how to verify that the ECU was working and how to test the parts related to the ignition system. But you already said it went over your head. The OP has a 1G, it doesn't have a ASD relay or individual crank and cam sensors. It has an MPI relay and single CAS mounted on the trans side of the intake cam.



The ECU doesn't even know if the CAS is working until you start cranking the engine. I've read the ECU code, I know what it does when you turn the power on and the can't check "the second you turn the key to the on position".

The 1G ECUs all have a common problem, the capacitor leak out their electrolyte and it corrodes the circuit board. If it has happened yet, it will or the capacitor filtering the 12v input will go dry and short, burning up the board. You want to address the issue before it happens for several good reasons, like saving your ECU and not being stranded.

I'll be happy to let you try and help out friend out but you should try to refer to the correct parts and not make things up when you don't know. Looking at your posts I've noted you have an attitude problem. I'm not interested in dealing with it.

Until the OP has something else to add, there is nothing to see here.

I dont have an attitude and never asked you to deal with anything. If you dont like my replies then ignore them, its that simple. Nothing went over my head, I failed to take note he has a 1g, i have a 2g which has both cam and crank sensors, hense the info i provided, so my apologies to the OP there.

Maybe you dont know anything about 2g's, who knows. Based on your inability to catch on and explain that i was talking about a 2g and your horrible uncontructive criticism, id say no. It was a simple mistake and i wasnt "making things up", i was giving info based on what i thought was the same gen car and the steps i took to deal with the same "no spark" issue i had. If this is how you go about criticizing people over simple mistakes then you have a bigger "attitude problem" than i do apparently, go fly a kite and stay out of the forum if you cant "deal with it".

 

[Junkyardspecial]

Back guys, my ECU by the way has had th cap fix done to it. It is getting power when I turn the key as well. I tried plugging all wires in twice switching some look alike plugs and still nothing. I'm beginning to think my cas Is bad. Probably what fried my old motor. Sorry about the bickering but you both helped teach me. Also, the wiring to my cas looks newish, it goes to my maf translator and doesn't look cracked. Its sleeved pretty well. How likely is I that my cas is bad? It is covered in oil. Not sure if it should be.

Also I should add that could a bad alt cause this?

 

[steve]

What sort of voltage are you seeing at rest and during cranking? The alternator isn't going to do much before the car starts running. As long as it's not shorted it's pretty passive to the problem at hand. The key is that the battery voltage needs to not drop below 8v during cranking or the ECU stops firing and should really not drop below 10v in practice.

Does it look like the CAS is covered in oil because it's leaking oil or because the rocker cover is? If it's leaking internally it will need to be replaced.

You can test the CAS with a voltmeter. The ECU pulls the two signal lines up to 5v and the CAS pulls them to ground as it's rotated to generate it's pulses.

You want to measure the voltage on the white wire to pin 3 on the CAS connector and on the smaller black wire (there are two black wires) going to pin 4 while you turn the CAS by hand. The white wire for the TDC signal should switch between 5v and ground twice per revolution and the smaller black wire four times.

If I remember correctly the MAFT has a white wire that taps into the smaller black wire from the CAS to pick up the RPM. Depending on how you wired it it may also connect to the larger black wire for it's ground and the red wire on the CAS harness for +12v. Usually they are wired to the MAF connector.

If the MAFT is bad it could be pulling the CAS signal down and the ECU is never seeing it.

 

[LandoAWD]

I failed to take note he has a 1g

Next time, stop flapping gums here. You admitted the mistake; move on.

 

[Junkyardspecial]

What sort of voltage are you seeing at rest and during cranking? The alternator isn't going to do much before the car starts running. As long as it's not shorted it's pretty passive to the problem at hand. The key is that the battery voltage needs to not drop below 8v during cranking or the ECU stops firing and should really not drop below 10v in practice.

Does it look like the CAS is covered in oil because it's leaking oil or because the rocker cover is? If it's leaking internally it will need to be replaced.

You can test the CAS with a voltmeter. The ECU pulls the two signal lines up to 5v and the CAS pulls them to ground as it's rotated to generate it's pulses.

You want to measure the voltage on the white wire to pin 3 on the CAS connector and on the smaller black wire (there are two black wires) going to pin 4 while you turn the CAS by hand. The white wire for the TDC signal should switch between 5v and ground twice per revolution and the smaller black wire four times.

If I remember correctly the MAFT has a white wire that taps into the smaller black wire from the CAS to pick up the RPM. Depending on how you wired it it may also connect to the larger black wire for it's ground and the red wire on the CAS harness for +12v. Usually they are wired to the MAF connector.

If the MAFT is bad it could be pulling the CAS signal down and the ECU is never seeing it.

The car sits around 11.5-12volts when sitting and during crank it drops to about 9.

I'm using the same CAS as my old motor. It had insane crankcase pressure when the car died. It just looked coated in oil. There is a bit of oil in where you put the cas but its nothing much. Could this be the issue?

 

[2g4me]

Next time, stop flapping gums here. You admitted the mistake; move on.

I believe I made my apologies and did move on, quoting me was unnecessary.

 

[Junkyardspecial]

Small update: Had a guy come check and he thinks its just a bad CAS, Im going to replace the ECU tomorrow.

 

[steve]

Does it look like oil is coming out of the inside of the CAS?
There is a seal around the outside and another inside it. The 90 CAS were optical like the 91 and 92 where there is an interrupter disk that blocks or passes light between a LED and photo transistor. It's pretty well sealed but oil can get on them and block them as sell as short out the wiring where it connects. So it you think is drowning in oil it's likely bad. I take it you haven't tested it like I described.

On out cars I always start out checking the ECU since they are such a common problem and nothing interesting without a good one. The problem with most ECU repair jobs is that are don't as quickly and cheaply as possible. That's not good for longevity. A large percentage of the ECUs I used to get had be worked on before and the quality of work ranged from truly horrible to quick and dirty. It was unusual to find anything like what you would have received from ECMTuning, Keydiver, or myself.

Let us know what it turns out to be.

 

[Junkyardspecial]

Does it look like oil is coming out of the inside of the CAS?
There is a seal around the outside and another inside it. The 90 CAS were optical like the 91 and 92 where there is an interrupter disk that blocks or passes light between a LED and photo transistor. It's pretty well sealed but oil can get on them and block them as sell as short out the wiring where it connects. So it you think is drowning in oil it's likely bad. I take it you haven't tested it like I described.

On out cars I always start out checking the ECU since they are such a common problem and nothing interesting without a good one. The problem with most ECU repair jobs is that are don't as quickly and cheaply as possible. That's not good for longevity. A large percentage of the ECUs I used to get had be worked on before and the quality of work ranged from truly horrible to quick and dirty. It was unusual to find anything like what you would have received from ECMTuning, Keydiver, or myself.

Let us know what it turns out to be.

I haven't had access to electrical testing equipment, I believe my friend will be doing it for me though when he brings it over. My ecu was repaired once before but I opened it up and it was the crappiest repair ever. So I wouldnt doubt that. Im taking forever doing this because Im having issues getting to my car to even go look at it... And now it got very cold out

 

[steve]

I understand, it's hard to motivate just going out to the garage. I should have pushed the HVAC guy harder to install the garage heater this summer.

 

[dsm44130]

I tried plugging all wires in twice switching some look alike plugs and still nothing.-Also, the wiring to my cas looks newish, it goes to my maf translator and doesn't look cracked. ???

 

[Junkyardspecial]

So I tried a new ecu and new cas. Ecu changed nothing. The cas made the car fire up twice for one turn then it shut right off again. Also while cranking I smell a good amount of fuel but my gauge is reading zero.

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

I ran into this issue while installing my rebuilt motor.

Double check connectors, clean them with compressed air and a pick to get your contacts clean. I was searching and searching for a answer and it was that simple.