putting the turbo on backwards

[robertd440]

you could buy one direct from ford chevy or dodge as all their diesel trucks come with them standard or porshe the new 911 has two of them! but i dont think thats what your geting at. You dont see them in the turbo companies catologes or on their websites because as far as i know they are still in custom order material. The company i work for has ordered them before through Allied Signal (parent company to Honeywell which is the parent company to Garret) I'm not sure why we didnt go direct to Garret thats not my department i just put the shit in the aircraft.

 

[Talon ESI-T]

The 911 uses variable nozzle tech? Huh, interesting.

I can understand why you want to do this since VW already has their prototype designed. VW uses a bypass on the S/C so the turbo can be fed from atmosphere and the S/C will not be the restrictive point when the turbo is spooling in the top end of your powerband. Make sense? I think you might not be considering a bypass valve through the Supercharger and a way to control it. A standalone would have the outputs you would be able to use i am sure. As long as you can operate a solinoid that will operate a butterfly. The only thing is the bypass needs to have its own map. Boost pressure, throttle and RPM need to be considered.

If you operated strictly on RPM then the transition at various throttle angles will not be a smooth HP curve. For example, at 60% throttle the S/C will build boost to say 3500 RPM where the turbo begins to spool mildly. Once the bypass opens, pressure may drop because the S/C is building 8 psi at 3500 but the turbo is not spooling enough because your not creating enough exhaust heat. Now you go from 8psi to say 5 or 6 psi. This may be fixed by choosing a smaller turbine but at what point will you start loosing at top end due to a smaller turbine.

If you operated on Throttle only, the result may be very similer. if you configure the bypass to open at 80%, when you floor the gas pedal the S/C wont be in the picture even if your at low RPM.

If you operated based on boost only, the S/C would build say 8psi and open the bypass. Pressure lost if the turbo is not spooling.

VW runs the S/C into the turbo regardless, so at the same time the compressor must not be so small that it is the restrictive point for the S/C.

As you can see there are more engineering points to consider and measure than there are days in the year. You could spend the next year working this out and still not have the right turbo sizing and S/C pulley. What you will use for piping is the smallest worry out there. Hell, use mild steel till you have the bugs ironed out then change to stainless.

VNT tech would be slightly less cumbersome but if it was an efficient way to boost a gasoline 4cylinder, dont you think Shelby wouldnt have abandoned the Turbo IV after 1 year? Dont you also think there would be more support for building the Turbo IV? Instead the mentality of the Shelby Daytona guys is to ditch the Turbo IV and buy an older Turbo II.

If you really like the idea, do it! You can learn a lot by taking on a project like this, I like your creativity.

Terry

 

[MILITISINVICTUS]

How about instead of the supercharger and whatnot, if you and your bro mount the turbo funkily and make the exhaust pipe go up through a hole in the hood instead? That shorter distance could help spool up, and you would maybe have the world's first choo-choo DSM? There's different for ya.

 

[Dream On]

Hahaha.

 

[majik2k5]

actualy the problem is that filling the engine with compressed air with 272 272 cams wont make as much power cuzz its out of the bower band. im hopping to get boost at 3000 RPM's because with the turbo im planning on using dosent make boost till 4000 RPM's so i get an extra 1000rpms of power. plus if you look at the setup off the other form the supercharger will help spool up the turbo

If you're looking for quicker boost, why not save the money you're going to spend on all this custom fabrication and buy a stroker kit from Slowboy. That will help you spool the turbo a ton quicker, and you could probably afford to buy a larger turbo as well, that will spool even quicker.

2.3L Stroker Kit

 

[TT_NS]

If you operated based on boost only, the S/C would build say 8psi and open the bypass. Pressure lost if the turbo is not spooling.

You set it to open at 10 PSI then so you know the turbo is spooling to 10 PSI then bypasss the supercharger

 

[GVR4592]

Search google? Do some research?

http://www.honeywell.com/sites/ts/tt/turbofactsbenifits_VNTworks.htm

Was the first google result.

I'm asking where do you BUY a vnt turbo that would work with our little 2.0 engine. I know what a vnt turbo is, I know that Garrett has been working on them for decades. I had one about 10 years ago.

 

[crazykid]

Wow holy off topic. I kinda feel bad for TT_NS no one wants to give him answers to his questions, just knocking the project.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225737 for discussion about his turbo/supercharge plans.

This thread for discussion about putting a turbo on backwards and custom downpipes.

Your own topic for your own questions about other things.

 

[majik2k5]

What it really comes down to is that you're never going to find any parts that are going to be bolt-on for this kind of project. Since the project itself is unique, the parts too will all have to be fabricated. I like the idea, but I think it's just a more complicated version of putting a stroker kit and ball bearing turbo on the motor.

However, a custom downpipe shouldn't be too terribly hard to get your hands on. Some exhaust shops will do it, but not for cheap. And I didn't notice what year you're doing the project on, but if it's a 1g 6bolt, which hopefully it is, you're going to have your hands full with the piping. There's not a ton of room to really even mount a supercharger in there, but it would be awesome if you could get one in there, not to mention routing the piping around the motor mounts and making sure nothing interupts the timing belt.

I do however like the idea from the pictures that I've seen, so good luck with the project. You might want to invest in some heat wrap though. From the looks of things, the piping from the supercharger to the intake on the turbocharger is going to be awfully close to the turbo housing and o2 housing, so I'd wrap the piping up pretty good.

Good luck, and get us some pictures when you get it going

 

[tsibryan]

I read that whole thread with the compound charged Evo, it looks like he gave up and went with a GT42R and nitrous.

EDIT: Link: http://forums.evolutionm.net/showpost.php?p=3060713&postcount=807

No way he'd give up, he's like made of money A Maserati, a Kleeman G55, and a modded EVO that he claims cost more than a 911TT.

 

[TT_NS]

yea i wanted to put the turbo on backwards so i could limit the amount of piping going to the turbo. so instead of the piping going around the turbo (and heating up) then to the turbo it can just go right to it. I can take out the A/C for the space for the SC. Im going to run the belt of teh crank pulley

 

[majik2k5]

Well, most belts I've seen that run superchargers are pretty hefty belts, are you going to be able to find a belt that will fit on the crank pulley and still be able to hold up?

 

[ALLBoostAWD]

Hey, instead of using a supercharger to spool the turbo use another turbo. Its called A Compound turbo setup. Superchargers are limited to the amount of boost they can create, turbos can create much more boost (CFM wise) than MOST superchargers, plus Superchargers use power to make power. A Compound setup uses 2 turbos, 1 small and 1 big. This setup uses the forced air and fast spool time of a small turbo to elinimate turbo lag and optimize the power. Here you go, check this out.

http://www.atsdiesel.com/ATSWebsite/HIWCompounds.asp

 

[TT_NS]

yea its also called sequential turbos. I think the VR4 has that to but im not to sure. That seemed more complicated to do and i had alot of problems with the first turbo backing up the exhuast. And I needed to set up alot of actuators to controle the turbos which would be a paine to figure out. But i think if it worked it would be a good idea as well.

 

[GVR4592]

Well, most belts I've seen that run superchargers are pretty hefty belts, are you going to be able to find a belt that will fit on the crank pulley and still be able to hold up?

That could be one of the biggest problems, I didn't even think of that. I would figure that out before you proceed any further. You are probably going to have to relocate or eliminate the power steering pump. Most supercharger companies can make custom pullies for any setup, you might want to contact them and see what they can come up with.

 

[TT_NS]

That could be one of the biggest problems, I didn't even think of that. I would figure that out before you proceed any further. You are probably going to have to relocate or eliminate the power steering pump. Most supercharger companies can make custom pullies for any setup, you might want to contact them and see what they can come up with.

The m62 that has the clutch is ran off of a 6 rib belt. now that i think about it, my crank will only use a 4 rib belt. I guess i got to see if i can get one customized i guess.

O and i was looking at the variable vane turbo and it looks interesting. Im still trying to figure out how the veins move. Im kind of curious why they mostly only put them in diesels and trucks, but i did see that they are putting it in the new 911 though.

 

[staticbrainwash]

The 3k vr4, if thats what you're refering to isn't sequential. It runs 2 9b turbos off of each bank of exhaust ports. My friend has one, so i know for a fact, it has manifolds that feed heach turbo from each bank of the v6. So just fyi on that.

And honestly, i think the dual turbo option would make a lot more sense than trying to "wire up" a SC onto a 4g. It sounds like you are stuck on using a SC but i dunno, i think there are better options, unless you really have the extra cash to throw around in case you eff up a motor or a SC ot turbo in the process. Not to mention the fabrication costs.

 

[TT_NS]

The 3k vr4, if thats what you're refering to isn't sequential. It runs 2 9b turbos off of each bank of exhaust ports. My friend has one, so i know for a fact, it has manifolds that feed heach turbo from each bank of the v6. So just fyi on that.

And honestly, i think the dual turbo option would make a lot more sense than trying to "wire up" a SC onto a 4g. It sounds like you are stuck on using a SC but i dunno, i think there are better options, unless you really have the extra cash to throw around in case you eff up a motor or a SC ot turbo in the process. Not to mention the fabrication costs.

yea see i dident know for a fact and i dont know what i was thinken sayen the VR4 i had my head thinken bout a 6 cylinder inline.So probobly the twin turbo supra would probobly be sequential.
Also im not doing this to a 4G? im doing it to my 1g. unless im missunderstanding what your saying. and a twin turbo set up would probobly cost the same if not more.

 

[staticbrainwash]

I bet a sequential TT would be much cheaper. And i meant 4g as in 4g63, not fourth gen. And no prob about the vr4, but i'm pretty sure the supras are set-up just the same. Each turbo feeding off of 3 ports and back to the intake.

 

[TT_NS]

I read that whole thread with the compound charged Evo, it looks like he gave up and went with a GT42R and nitrous

I just read most of the thread(had over 30 pages of feedback couldent read it all ) . He dident give up. He finished the car. It ended up being very successful. but he put more money in to that then i would every dream of putting into a car.

here is the pic

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here is a lil part of the thread

""Originally Posted by Jasil
Forget that.....Why in the world would you want to do this? Just use N20 for spool at the track and save the money, time, pain, reliablility, and ugliness of that black horsepower eating blowdryer.

I do have to congratulate you on alot of perseverance and hard work, but I again still have to ask why?""

No offense...but you're an idiot! First of all, the "blowdryer" isn't black and it looks awesome (check out the new pics). I don't want to use N2O as this car isn't just for drag racing. The supercharger has a bypass valve, once the turbo hits boost the supercharger is completely bypassed (no "horsepower eating.") What makes you think that there will be any more reliability issues with this 900 HP setup vs. the 900 HP setup that you're describing? I'd expect "issues" with either setup.

This turbo is huge. We ran it without the supercharger and made 10psi of boost at 7500 rpms with a 2.3 L stroker. Without the supercharger this car would not be driveable on the street ot autox. With the supercharger we are able to make 30 psi on this turbo at 6,000 rpms with minimal tuning (The old map is still loaded). Once this is dialed in it will be sick. We've been beating the crap out of it over the past week and so far everything works flawlessly.

Also, read the part about my location. I'm in Denver. Try running a large turbo out here, it doesn't work. The idea behind this car is explained in detail throughout this thread, you should try reading more than the first post.

 

[rowlex]

I just have two small points to make...

You say you could get power down lower and have "an extra 1000 rpms of power"....who the races at 3000-4000 rpms? Shit if you are taking off from the line your already atleast in the 5k rpm range.

Quicker spool up? Invest in dsmlink and use anti-lag. WAY cheaper then a supercharger/whateverthe####else.

 

[majik2k5]

I wan't sure on the project at first, but I think it's growing on me. So if you need any help with anything then let me know. But there area few other issues. The crank pulley that I believe you're going to run your SC off of will need to be custom made unless you intend on shredding belt after belt after belt. However, when you have it made, make sure you have clearence to actually install it. There's not a ton of room between the crank and the wheel well there to install it.

 

[TT_NS]

I wan't sure on the project at first, but I think it's growing on me. So if you need any help with anything then let me know. But there area few other issues. The crank pulley that I believe you're going to run your SC off of will need to be custom made unless you intend on shredding belt after belt after belt. However, when you have it made, make sure you have clearence to actually install it. There's not a ton of room between the crank and the wheel well there to install it.

yea i know. knowing me id wait till the engine was in then find out i need the engine out to install it . But i would put the new crank pulley and every thing els on while the engine out out. I wouldent know what dementians to make the pulley until i get the SC and the engine togeather. Any one know about how much it runs to get a custom pulley? I know its kind of a broad question though.

 

[majik2k5]

It's going to be pretty tough to give a price on anything custom. Call up a shop that might be able to make them for you, and give them the dimensions it needs to fit.

 

[TurboSportAWD]

That guy with the Evo has an incredible amount of money invested in that setup. Not to mention the fact that actual engineering has been put into the setup and he still has bugs that are getting worked out. Unless you're a mechanical engineer who is earning some serious cash, I wouldn't start this project.