pusher AND puller?

[Quasimondo]

cool.. i remember when the xspower fmic kit came out everyone blasted ebay parts as well..

ok some clarification. the pusher AND puller i plan on running would be replacing only the rad fan. i plan to keep the stock a/c fan in place. so when i ask if i could wire them into the stock harness i meant would i be able to splice the stock connector two ways??



this doesn't make sense.. i have a pusher fan pushing air through the rad, then the puller fan getting that air and pulling it even more.. if it does hinder flow it won't be anything like the HUGE FMIC i have blocking flow right now.. just trying to get some air moving.. i only have my itty bitty ac fan right now to stop flow. i relocated it to the middle and connected it to the rad fan connector as a very ghetto temp solution..

You don't want to stack the fans together like that. It sounds good on paper, but it won't flow like it's supposed to, and one fan will end up being a restriction to the other.

Going with a pusher fan versus a puller is really based on space limitations. I didn't have the space to mount my second fan as a puller because the compressor outlet pipe was in the way. If you have the space to mount both fans behind the radiator as a puller setup, do that instead, using the second fan as the replacement for the a/c condensor fan.

 

[SinaiTSi]

I didn't have the space to mount my second fan as a puller because the compressor outlet pipe was in the way.

Exactly same with me. I wish I could've done 2 pullers.



With fans.....it is a known fact that a puller is more efficient than a pusher. If you can have two pullers, awesome, go for it. Unfortunately, many people like myself don't have that space. I have one 14" fan that is doing my cooling right now and is keeping everything in check as a puller. If I every overheat in traffic again, then I will be installing a second fan as a pusher. When not working against each other, a fan can never hinder air flow when sitting at an idle like in traffic. When you start cruising, then it begins to hinder your airflow, a pusher being worse because it's actually in the way of the radiator. This is why it's suggested to use 2 pullers if possible.

 

[halik008]

E

With fans.....it is a known fact that a puller is more efficient than a pusher.

not true

pusher being worse because it's actually in the way of the radiator.

doesn't make a diff where the fan is.....

 

[SinaiTSi]

not true

First off, I only let my mom shake my finger at me so you better put yours down.

Second of all, it is true. Why do you think that the Mitsu. engineers gave you two puller fans in the first place? Because it looks better? No, they've done their research. That doesn't just go for Mitsu's too, it's for all cars, every once in a while you'll see a car with a puller and a pusher, the GVR4 does for example, but that's because they got it to work and they wouldn't have the space for 2 pullers otherwise. Not only does the puller suck air through the radiator creating air flow, but it also blows hot air off the engine. A pusher doesn't do that, once the air gets through the radiator, it's not even going fast enough to make a difference on that hot engine.

doesn't make a diff where the fan is.....

O Rly?

For many of the said reasons above and plus, you need to think about it, when cruising on the highway, with 2 pulling fans you have nothing in the way of the radiator. So you've basically got all of the air slamming into the face of the radiator. With a pusher fan, it's not a huge deal, but it will slow and hinder airflow to the radiator and sometimes that means the difference between overheating and not. Even if there is something behind the radiator to stop the airflow, the very front of it will still get that air that's coming regardless if it's going straight through or being pushed off to the side, or under, or whatever it doesn't matter, all that matters is that it's getting air off those hot fins. Now obviously, if you put a plate or something behind the radiator it would make it much less efficient, but if you put it right in front of it, it's gonna do squat. A guy on here had major cooling problems with his car, but only when he went WOT or was just cruising. Guess what, he had two pushing fans, sure it was fine sitting in traffic because the radiator just needed some air flow. Once engine starts working again though it's gonna need some real good airflow, not just two wimpy fans blowing on it. That guy switched the fans to be pullers instead and now he's not running nearly as hot. Coincidence? No.

 

[halik008]

Second of all, it is true. Why do you think that the Mitsu. engineers gave you two puller fans in the first place? Because it looks better? No, they've done their research. That doesn't just go for Mitsu's too, it's for all cars, every once in a while you'll see a car with a puller and a pusher, the GVR4 does for example, but that's because they got it to work and they wouldn't have the space for 2 pullers otherwise. Not only does the puller suck air through the radiator creating air flow, but it also blows hot air off the engine. A pusher doesn't do that, once the air gets through the radiator, it's not even going fast enough to make a difference on that hot engine.

why 2 pullers in the 1st place? because there is more space on the engine side All the space infront of the radiator is eaten up the the A/C condeser and w/e space is left is hardly big enought for 2 8 inch fans w/ the core support, PS cooler lines and bumper core in the way.

For the record the puller has negligible impact on engine block itself.

O Rly?

For many of the said reasons above and plus, you need to think about it, when cruising on the highway, with 2 pulling fans you have nothing in the way of the radiator. So you've basically got all of the air slamming into the face of the radiator. With a pusher fan, it's not a huge deal, but it will slow and hinder airflow to the radiator and sometimes that means the difference between overheating and not. Even if there is something behind the radiator to stop the airflow, the very front of it will still get that air that's coming regardless if it's going straight through or being pushed off to the side, or under, or whatever it doesn't matter, all that matters is that it's getting air off those hot fins. Now obviously, if you put a plate or something behind the radiator it would make it much less efficient, but if you put it right in front of it, it's gonna do squat. A guy on here had major cooling problems with his car, but only when he went WOT or was just cruising. Guess what, he had two pushing fans, sure it was fine sitting in traffic because the radiator just needed some air flow. Once engine starts working again though it's gonna need some real good airflow, not just two wimpy fans blowing on it. That guy switched the fans to be pullers instead and now he's not running nearly as hot. Coincidence? No.

your whole analogy does not apply since it has a great fallacy. The whole plate behind or infront is totally irrelevant to this discussion since what you are talking about is preventing surface contact with the radiator........this has to do with flow generators.

Further more if you put the plate behind the radiator the cooling effect is minimal since there it build up of stagnant air right in front of the radiator which deflects the incoming air around the radiator so heat transer between the radiator and the incoming air is really pity.

BTW i'm product engineer for advanced R&D branch of Takata

 

[mirkoelek]

Hey engineer, dont be so stubborn...

Find a little hole and blow thru it, then try to suck from the same hole... What do you feel.... You barely push any air thru that little hole, but you pull a lot....


I mean little as less than a 1/16 inch....

Now go back to radiator and just think about it.... Its the same principle

 

[SinaiTSi]

why 2 pullers in the 1st place? because there is more space on the engine side All the space infront of the radiator is eaten up the the A/C condeser and w/e space is left is hardly big enought for 2 8 inch fans w/ the core support, PS cooler lines and bumper core in the way.

For the record the puller has negligible impact on engine block itself.

Wait, what are you talking about?? You said "why 2 pullers in the 1st place? because there is more space on the engine side". That sentence contradicts itself because pullers do go on the engine side. A pusher is positioned in the front of the radiator, hence the name pusher, pushing air towards it. True, a puller won't have a huge impact on the block itself but you can't possibly sit here and tell me it does no good at all. It helps blow hot air off the bay in general, off the exhaust mani. etc., no, not huge amounts, but any amount in that ridiculously hot bay helps.

your whole analogy does not apply since it has a great fallacy. The whole plate behind or infront is totally irrelevant to this discussion since what you are talking about is preventing surface contact with the radiator........this has to do with flow generators.

Further more if you put the plate behind the radiator the cooling effect is minimal since there it build up of stagnant air right in front of the radiator which deflects the incoming air around the radiator so heat transer between the radiator and the incoming air is really pity.

BTW i'm product engineer for advanced R&D branch of Takata

First off, I'm impressed by your vocabulary but big words don't necessarily prove something right, just makes it sound cooler. Also, I don't know what you possibly mean by saying the plate theory is irrevelant. We were talking about air flow of the fan, yes, but my main point was that once you get up to speeds where you fans are no longer helping, but hindering the cooling process, it's better to have them behind the radiator. Also, I never said that you wouldn't have cooling problems if you put a plate right behind the radiator, yes, you'd have hotter temperatures, but you can't mean to tell me it would be the same if you put the plate right in front. That means, no air at all, nothing. It is also true that a fan isn't like a metal plate and it does let airflow through, but I used that analogy just to help prove a point.

Using your job description doesn't really mean a lot to me, because I'm an installation tech at a company that does A/V Presentation Systems and our Engineers screw up ALOT. They're human and so am I so I won't complain, but guess who has to fix these problems when they come up on the job, I do. Just because an engineer says something doesn't mean that it's gold. In no way am I saying that you're a bad engineer, I'm just saying.........



Lastly, all radiator fans are not created equal. Many fans are designed to be pullers. And even though many are reversible, they're still more efficient as pullers, SPAL even suggest mounting them as pullers because it's simply better.

 

[halik008]

Hey engineer, dont be so stubborn...

Find a little hole and blow thru it, then try to suck from the same hole... What do you feel.... You barely push any air thru that little hole, but you pull a lot....


I mean little as less than a 1/16 inch....

Now go back to radiator and just think about it.... Its the same principle

same amount would be pulled or pushed if it was a regulated test with all factors being held constant expect pulling vs. pushing.....

Honestly, the very truth of the matter is, air is easier to move by pulling, than by pushing. It's a simple fact. That is simply because it is too difficult to actually direct the air around things, than it is to pull them, because of the direction of the pulling already has a direct path to follow.

that really makes no sense....

And that doesn't just stop with cars, its the ENTIRE WORLD. Out of how many home products you own, how many use fans externally to ram air into whatever, even your computers, A/C units, Refridgerators. I could just imagine an A/C unit with a fan mounted before the air filter, raming the air to feed the machine, #### ya that's damn effecient.

Has to do with the ability to package the product and making it look apprealing. Mounting ugly looking fan outside those units is not an option......

Wait, what are you talking about?? You said "why 2 pullers in the 1st place? because there is more space on the engine side". That sentence contradicts itself because pullers do go on the engine side. A pusher is positioned in the front of the radiator, hence the name pusher, pushing air towards it. True, a puller won't have a huge impact on the block itself but you can't possibly sit here and tell me it does no good at all. It helps blow hot air off the bay in general, off the exhaust mani. etc., no, not huge amounts, but any amount in that ridiculously hot bay helps.

talking about why dsms use 2 pullers vs. 2 pushers

First off, I'm impressed by your vocabulary but big words don't necessarily prove something right, just makes it sound cooler. Also, I don't know what you possibly mean by saying the plate theory is irrevelant. We were talking about air flow of the fan, yes, but my main point was that once you get up to speeds where you fans are no longer helping, but hindering the cooling process, it's better to have them behind the radiator.

at those speeds it doesn't matter where the obstruction is since either the same amount of air will be obstructed. Whether it has to deflect around the fan then go thru the fan or make it thru the radiator and then get backed up by the puller fan being in the way is totally irrelevant....same amount of air flow will be stopped give it's same exact fans....

 

[halik008]

same amount would be pulled or pushed if it was a regulated test with all factors being held constant expect pulling vs. pushing.....



that really makes no sense....



Has to do with the ability to package the product and making it look apprealing. Mounting ugly looking fan outside those units is not an option......




talking about why dsms use 2 pullers vs. 2 pushers



at those speeds it doesn't matter where the obstruction is since either the same amount of air will be obstructed. Whether it has to deflect around the fan then go thru the fan or make it thru the radiator and then get backed up by the puller fan being in the way is totally irrelevant....same amount of air flow will be stopped give it's same exact fans....

Using your job description doesn't really mean a lot to me, because I'm an installation tech at a company that does A/V Presentation Systems and our Engineers screw up ALOT. They're human and so am I so I won't complain, but guess who has to fix these problems when they come up on the job, I do. Just because an engineer says something doesn't mean that it's gold. In no way am I saying that you're a bad engineer, I'm just saying.........

consumer electronic are completly deregulated except for FCC & EPA regualtions with deals with EMI emmissions.

Only mechanical testing that has to be done is whatever the manufacturer deems necessary and considering testing cost $$ minimal endurance and life cycle testing is done. Alas crap design. Hell you could even have non engineer design stuff and nobody would know or care. Furthermore a great deal of unauthorized changes are done in the production that hoes the designs since there no regulation to prevent otherwise.

I work in the auto industry and i can go on for days about how some UAW smartass in a production plant decided he knows more then us and "tweaked" our design after final release to make the production easier on him.... We do safety systems....our units go thru so much testing it's not even funny....

 

[halik008]

I'm'm done trying to talk sense into you...

Take Fluid Dynamics all i'm gonna say

 

[SinaiTSi]

consumer electronic are completly deregulated except for FCC & EPA regualtions with deals with EMI emmissions.

Oh, I didn't know that, I thought that hooking up a DVD player and installing a turbo was the same deal......I was making a point, in no way whatsoever did I bring up my job because it was fan related. I was trying to get the point across that engineers aren't always right.

BTW, we don't install consumer electronics, but multi-million dollar systems. Have you ever heard of Microsoft, Lockheed Martin, the FBI, just to name a few places we've done.

Only mechanical testing that has to be done is whatever the manufacturer deems necessary and considering testing cost $$ minimal endurance and life cycle testing is done. Alas crap design. Hell you could even have non engineer design stuff and nobody would know or care. Furthermore a great deal of unauthorized changes are done in the production that hoes the designs since there no regulation to prevent otherwise.

I work in the auto industry and i can go on for days about how some UAW smartass in a production plant decided he knows more then us and "tweaked" our design after final release to make the production easier on him.... We do safety systems....our units go thru so much testing it's not even funny....

Since you do work in the auto industry, why don't you ask your buddies why fans are always mounted as pullers.

I'm not trying to sound like a know-it-all, I know much less than I'd like, what I've been saying all along isn't from my discoveries, but people much smarter than me and had time to do testing. I was just bringing up some facts to help the OP and then you had to disagree and make me type much more than I wanted to.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I'm'm done trying to talk sense into you...

Take Fluid Dynamics all i'm gonna say

I've gotta add to this.

On one hand, you're right. Pusher or puller doesn't make a difference in the sense of CFM, or amount of air moved.

But where you go horribley wrong is when you claim a pusher is the same or more efficient in cooling a radiator.

Ever seen a computer that uses water cooling? 99% of the time it will be setup with a fan sucking air through the radiator this isn't just "because". The cooling setup is designed this way because it achieves lower coolant temperatures which then leads to a cooler running processor. The same applies here.

Take Real Life 101, thats all I'm going to say.

 

[mirkoelek]

I'm going to explain this is the best way imaginable so the discussion about push vs pull can be put back in its grave.

Imagine this is a plate, and the white holes, are holes.

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Now the difference between water and air is going to be very discrete.

If you attempt to push water through the holes, it is going to become a natural vacuum and assist the water around the holes to pull through it.

However, with air, this is not the same, imagine trying to push air through the holes, and as it comes into contact with the plate, instead of the hole, it begins to create turbulance and corrupt the air attempting to be rammed through the holes.

Now if you take into consideration pulling the air through this little swiss cheese thingy, the air has only a limited direction it can go, and will only come in at the holes, however with absolutely no turbulance or any ill effects, and the cfm rating of the fan will not be hampered completely, while keeping velocity of the air much higher than going the other direction (pushing).

dude, maybe the guy is wrong...But do you have to go thru all this just to prove that you are RIGHT .... You even drew the nice pic there , i bet that time you could use to clean your engine bay or maybe your garage.....All engineers here, but it looks all behave like kids...I'm gonna say now: pusher is better than puller (ask your girlfriend)

 

[PieEyedPiper]

dude, maybe the guy is wrong...But do you have to go thru all this just to prove that you are RIGHT .... You even drew the nice pic there , i bet that time you could use to clean your engine bay or maybe your garage.....All engineers here, but it looks all behave like kids...I'm gonna say now: pusher is better than puller (ask your girlfriend)

I like your car, very cool
But you're wrong. And you're even more childish by being "funny" and trying to insult people and their girlfriends. Besides, how do you know he doesn't like dudes?

While not a car application, I can provide a boat laod of threads/link/pictures/graphs/articles on this very subject and how it fits into water cooled processors. I'd bet my car that this information translates perfectly into the world of car radiators, especially since most computer water cooling rigs use car radiators. These people try to squeeze every single degree they can out of their systems for better performance, I doutb they say pullers are better just because.

To be honest I don't really give a damn what you believe, but I'd be willing to provide more information if it would help someone else understand the truth versus your pusher statments that don't have any proof or reasonable theory for.

 

[mirkoelek]

I like your car, very cool

Thanks

I'll pretend that i didnt read the rest.... Happy boosting

 

[SinaiTSi]

Hey engineer, dont be so stubborn...

Find a little hole and blow thru it, then try to suck from the same hole... What do you feel.... You barely push any air thru that little hole, but you pull a lot....


I mean little as less than a 1/16 inch....

Now go back to radiator and just think about it.... Its the same principle

I'm gonna say now: pusher is better than puller

Sooo, were you joking with the last statement, or you just decided to change your opinion?

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Sooo, were you joking with the last statement, or you just decided to change your opinion?

Yeah, I realized that too, I just figured that other guy convinced him somehow that pusher was better.

 

[SinaiTSi]

Honestly, I don't see how though, because no valid points were made.

 

[mirkoelek]

Evolution has one pusher......

 

[SinaiTSi]

Evolution has one pusher......

Galant VR-4 has one pusher too. It's not like pusher fans are of the devil. They are still better than nothing. We were just trying to make it a point that puller fans were more efficient and they are used more than pusher fans. MOST of the time you'll see 2 pullers from the factory and sometimes you'll see 1 puller and 1 pusher. But there is a reason you don't ever see 2 pushers roll out of the factory.

Ok, to sum it all up. It's not like if you decide to run a pusher fan..... !!!!! the car's gonna overheat. But at the same time, if you can run two pullers, than do that.

 

[mirkoelek]

Galant VR-4 has one pusher too. It's not like pusher fans are of the devil. They are still better than nothing. We were just trying to make it a point that puller fans were more efficient and they are used more than pusher fans. MOST of the time you'll see 2 pullers from the factory and sometimes you'll see 1 puller and 1 pusher. But there is a reason you don't ever see 2 pushers roll out of the factory.

Ok, to sum it all up. It's not like if you decide to run a pusher fan..... !!!!! the car's gonna overheat. But at the same time, if you can run two pullers, than do that.

I agree that puller is more efficient, i said that before...When i said that pusher is better I was just messing around......Make a valid statement ... Why go into the arguing to make this tread look bad....

 

[SinaiTSi]

Why go into the arguing to make this tread look bad....

Ha, it looked bad a long time ago.

 

[halik008]

Yes because fluids act just like gases, especially when trying to do anything related to VELOCITY.

I'm not going to get back into this discussion.

But just to prove your total lack of knowledge on this topic.....Fluid Dynamics....explains the behaivor of all flowing mediums....gases and liquids..... since by definition gases ARE fluids



good job bud you are learning something already.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Pulling practically 'everything' gas or liquid offers much more control over what your attempting to pull, over pushing the same thing.

Example.

 

[silkcity100]

this is the last post on this
MOUNT 2 FANS ANY WAY POSSIBLE,2 IS ALWAYS BETTER THEN ONE