PTT (AGAIN?) or Tranny this time?

[hisandherturbo]

Well, 2 weeks ago everything was fine (for about 24hrs), Go to the track, snap a rear axle. Well, got the rear axle in today, and NOW I can barely get it into gear. It is a nasty nasty sound while trying to go into gear and grinding (most of the time), then as I start to roll gets louder but once the clutch is all the way out, it's fine and it goes into gear "ok" while moving, even speed shifted succesfully a couple times ( about 2 out of the 6 tries), never had a tranny/clutch issue prior to the axle breaking. Here's another kicker........... when I dropped the transfer to see if I found a bunch of metal (which I didn't or in the tranny fluid either) I did find this lil bolt that fell out (see pic)......... whats a good way to tell if tranny or clutch? (aside from pulling it, even though that is going to happen, just want to know what I am getting myself into).

THX
JOE

 

[fastfive0]

so are you only hearing this "noise" when you put the clutch in? If so its the same noise I had when I sheared the splines off my PTT discs. Eventually I lost the clutch all together and had to be towed home! As for the bolt, i dunno, could possibly be a flywheel bolt. Are you saying it was in your T/C or just that it fell out when you were removing the T/C?

 

[hisandherturbo]

so are you only hearing this "noise" when you put the clutch in? If so its the same noise I had when I sheared the splines off my PTT discs. Eventually I lost the clutch all together and had to be towed home! As for the bolt, i dunno, could possibly be a flywheel bolt. Are you saying it was in your T/C or just that it fell out when you were removing the T/C?

I agree with the splines thing..... been there done that too, 1k miles ago?, that's why I said PTT AGAIN............grrrrrrrr, it does sound like that, but prior to my rear axle snapping, clutch was awesome and quiet, and now WOW, and the bolt just fell............ one said maybe...........That looks like one of the bolts that holds the rear oil seal assembly in place.

Check your bell housing to block bolts to make sure they are all tight.


So I am not sure if it's related or not......... ty

 

[habitatguy187]

As quoted from my local forum and a dsm who REALLY knows his stuff. So far his car has went 10.5 on street tires, a 2.0 60', and STOCK SUSPENSION! So he's pretty knowledgeable to say the least.

I more than called and talked to Steve Fox. He is the original designer to the quarter master twin disc, as he use to work for QM. I have had very very lengthy conversations to steve about his product and flaws that need addressed in his design. Believe me If I had known this before hand I would have just bought a QM out of the gate. Long story short Steve Fox makes a good product and it could be great if he would listen and not try to talk down to you as though you have no edumacacion at all. His hubs on his discs are too soft in HRC hardness and causes premature wearing of the splines and eventually causes the splines to shear off and destroy the discs. Furthermore the discs measure .200 and are too thin for a drag standpoint past say 450hp. I say this as at that level you can keep driveline parts together and the burst load onto the discs from launching is reduced drastically at this level then say 700hp. The clutch is designed around large numbers of torque (shearing) but the discs overheat quickly from slipping the clutch at the line to hold the driveline together. This is just the beginning. Mr. Fox also stated that no matter what the dsm community did with his clutch in OUR cars that the clutch would never see its full life span as the imput shaft runs out of concentricity from improper (loose ) preload tolerances from the factory, and that we do not have a pilot bearing on our imput shafts from the factory. This is true however my built trans (built be me) is far from stock, and preload is adjust to eliminate a runout problem from the imput shaft at higher rpms. Even though it cannot be completely eliminated since it does not have a pilot bearing it is Far superior to the factory production trans assemblies and the imput shaft is preloaded with pressure now and not based off the factory end play specification. Some of this may be difficult to understand for some people on here, however the ones that have been around for a while should grasp this quite well. I had my clutch rebuilt by PTT 2 times in 850 miles and I have no problems with my trans or my block alignment dowels or any flywheel issues whatsoever. I have checked and triple checked on my end. Steve Fox readily admitted to me after I had talked to an engineer for 3 hours at QM that the hardness of his splines on his PTT clutch were too soft and has since upped the hardness to stop this failure. He told me that the clutch I sent him the second time needed rebuilt again and that I was to pay for it after only 125 miles from the 1st 585.00 rebuild, not even 6 months prior, and 4 months of that it was still in the box waiting for installation. This is when i was dynoing the car and getting ready for pinks all out with the car that I was having all these issues. Keep in mind it was 1050.00 for it brand new- ran it 600 miles roughly and had a vibration that was awful - almost did not make it home. Found out the splines were almost gone, and the discs were floating wherever and causing them to be imbalanced and were wearing badly in random areas from the way they were engaging all the time from this issue. Seems like the discs would not move outward much but this is not the case at 9k rpm or more, trust me. I told him to send my BAD clutch back and I would take my business else where as I was done with his product that he blatantly admitted needed a revision and said I was not the 1st person with this issue. I told him the hardness (HRC-rockwell) specs on the QM unit and he went off about his 30 years experience and his engineering this and his prototypes that I have no clue about and then ultimately hung up on me after I told him I am not paying him another cent. So 1.5 weeks later I had a huge box show up with my old clutch parts that were cut and bent badly so i could no way reuse them and labeled with his thoughts of what damaged each part and a 6 page letter telling me again about his knowledge and his superior product to ANY clutch on the market for our cars or evo's.
This truely is the short version and there is more to the story, don't get me started on how he blamed c16/ and q16 race gas on the ability to destroy his clutch cover and spring mechanisms in the finger bushings, and how every time I talked to him he told me I need to get away from the factory imput bearings as they needed taper not roller bearings. He always confused a dsm with an evo transmission and then would argue with me that he was right. Yeah I laughed at him, then he gave me three phone numbers to engineers in Chicago that I was to contact about my bearings and Poor fuel choices. (I can't make this up, I have people that have read the letter and heard the entire story.) Ultimately in the end he sent, with a broken clutch in a box, a brand new ptt clutch and throw out bearing with the new HARDENED hubs and all, with a disclaimer that he is not responsible for the imput shaft if his product destroys it. So I opened the package and seen it was brand new took pics and taped it back up and sold that piece. I know this is very very long and I am sorry but you asked. I bought a QM with the maperformance flywheel and the .250 rally discs. 2010 will show the truth. I do fell that the PTT is a good clutch it just needs a few things revised ( ie..harder hubs , thicker disks , and hardened fingers on the clutch cover- the fingers are too soft a metal,the conical TOB had already put a large groove in the fingers in 850 miles. Readers digest version: buy a QM or titlon twin disc - the end

 

[fastfive0]

let us know how you make out with this.

BTW, habitatguy, I run a BONE stock suspension,street tires, cut 1.6-1.7 60's and trap around 130mph so maybe i can be in the "knowledgeable" group too and yes we have all heard the same QM story of thicker discs and hardened hubs. Talk to twicks69 on here as he is a QM rep and tested his own design Twin disc on his 9 second car. His product appears to be the real deal and If my PTT shits the bed again....I will be going with a Qm setup from him...OR parting my car out

 

[hisandherturbo]

let us know how you make out with this.

BTW, habitatguy, I run a BONE stock suspension,street tires, cut 1.6-1.7 60's and trap around 130mph so maybe i can be in the "knowledgeable" group too and yes we have all heard the same QM story of thicker discs and hardened hubs. Talk to twicks69 on here as he is a QM rep and tested his own design Twin disc on his 9 second car. His product appears to be the real deal and If my PTT shits the bed again....I will be going with a Qm setup from him...OR parting my car out

But of course........... TY, yeah, I have heard that about PTT's also, that's why the title is (AGAIN!)......... need to update the sig, but at 7000' DA I run 11.0@128........... cutting a 1.75 on DR's......... that's how I snapped my rear axle to begin with..........

 

[habitatguy187]

BTW, habitatguy, I run a BONE stock suspension,street tires, cut 1.6-1.7 60's and trap around 130mph so maybe i can be in the "knowledgeable" group too

Yeah I know anyone can build a quick car with enough money, just throwing that out there to give some kind of credit. Seriously though you go to this guy's garage and he just has transmission parts laying all over the place, and he can tear one down and rebuild it like I'm tying my shoes.



Either way though, goodluck with whatever happens.

 

[hisandherturbo]

!!!!!!!! AGAIN!!!!!!!!!! I can't belive that, there are only hundreds of miles on it.......... there's even OVER .192 left on ea disk........... WTF, wonder what they will / won't do for me...........