Propane...new first hand information

[L2RTSiAWD]

I don't have a TB elbow anymore. With my new IC piping it's one peice for the top pipe.

 

[95GST]

When propane comes out of a small nozzle/jet, it may be a bit lower than ambient but it is definitely not cooling the charged air. I have put a probe and logged it myself. Not a temp drop at all.

Please if any vendors is reading this, I wish they would remove the "cooling intake charge" as a feature. It is simply misinformation.

Secondly my EGT did drop initially with propane. But it's only because it is running pig rich. Nothing to get too excited about because the car is most likely slower. Only after I re-tune the car the EGT is around 850-900C again, car feels faster of course because it is no longer dumping fuel into the engine.

Cost about $2.15 per gallon at Ace hardware.. I refill about every 2 weeks and before it gets too low. Fill it up with a gallon or less.

 

[candela]

oh shizzle thats dope!! you ready to go to the track/dyno John?
I contacted dyno-comp and I think in abotu 2 weeks Im gonna be going there. Then immediately after that Id like to go to the track...

 

[candela]

how are you measuring your intake temps? i has got to be dissipating some heat, and I almost gaurantee that it cools it a little bit...

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

Originally posted by candela
oh shizzle thats dope!! you ready to go to the track/dyno John?
I contacted dyno-comp and I think in abotu 2 weeks Im gonna be going there. Then immediately after that Id like to go to the track...

I want to go to dyno-comp also before I go to the track and i want the propane on before I go to the dyno to do back-to-back comparison.

 

[candela]

thats what Im saying...when your done we'll go, so be finished in about 2 weeks =)

 

[95GST]

I used a omori intake temperature gauge, it's like a EGT but thinner aluminum thermocouple. located just a couple inch upstream from propane injection point. Was thinking it may read below ambient when injecting too, but it's not true.

The truth is it's just a fast expanding gaseous fuel.. Does not cool your intake charge.

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

Originally posted by candela
thats what Im saying...when your done we'll go, so be finished in about 2 weeks =)

Well then I need to get this propane installed.

 

[candela]

Ok dont be shy then... seriously let me know when your finished or want some company doing it. i want to get the IPO kit very soon and woudl like ot help/see install. PLus my turbo is going in this week and I need dyno time with it so let me know,


Austin

 

[zac83]

a few facts:

propane wont clean your engine like water injection does: propane keeps the engine from getting dirty when running rich in the first place by aiding in complete combustion.

you wont notice additional power when adding propane OR water injection, you will notice the fact that you can turn your boost up and make more power without blowing your motor to pieces.

propane is dirt cheap. a hobbs switch, bar-b-que components, and a solenoid with a tip can be set up for your own home made system and you burn maybe 1 bottle of propane per 5 tanks of gas or so. not to mention people put alcohaul in the water or buy washer fluid to use for water injection which technicly IS just as expensive. Not to mention: if you do water injection, you have to buy a pump to pressurize the water so it wont backtrack into your tank from high intake manifold pressures...

propane is less likely to foul plugs and will keep them cleaner.

propane doesnt cool by richening the mixture: it cools by lowering the speed of combustion and keeping the engine 'in time' with its own combustion processes.

Hate to see people dogging propane... that stuff owns. Just to throw this one out here, I'm going to see if i can set up a drip gas (white gas) injection system next week (140 or so octane AND free). If i'll try to see what it does if i can find some and get it all set up in time.

 

[Imp Pwr Online]

Originally posted by zac83
a few facts:

propane wont clean your engine like water injection does: propane keeps the engine from getting dirty when running rich in the first place by aiding in complete combustion.

you wont notice additional power when adding propane OR water injection, you will notice the fact that you can turn your boost up and make more power without blowing your motor to pieces.

propane is dirt cheap. a hobbs switch, bar-b-que components, and a solenoid with a tip can be set up for your own home made system and you burn maybe 1 bottle of propane per 5 tanks of gas or so. not to mention people put alcohaul in the water or buy washer fluid to use for water injection which technicly IS just as expensive. Not to mention: if you do water injection, you have to buy a pump to pressurize the water so it wont backtrack into your tank from high intake manifold pressures...

propane is less likely to foul plugs and will keep them cleaner.

propane doesnt cool by richening the mixture: it cools by lowering the speed of combustion and keeping the engine 'in time' with its own combustion processes.

Hate to see people dogging propane... that stuff owns. Just to throw this one out here, I'm going to see if i can set up a drip gas (white gas) injection system next week (140 or so octane AND free). If i'll try to see what it does if i can find some and get it all set up in time.

Sorry, but I have to clear up a few things in your post. Not to bash anyone but we need to dispell that our system is a Home Depot BBQ parts kit.

#1 propane is not 140 octane. It is on average 110

#2 I would steer away from any kit put together with BBQ grill parts. I don't see how you would even build one with BBQ parts. BBQs run off of 10psi or lower FIXED Regulator where propane injection runs off of 80psi or higher Adjustable regulator. We use a "Pound for Pound" Hi flow 40-100 PSI propane INDUSTRIAL regulator. It retails at $75. Something not found on BBQ grills nor at Home Depot. You will not find a suitable Regulator at any Home Improvement store.

#3 A High quality LPG solenoid is not cheap. Nitrous solenoids have been tested by many and they are not suitable. They are not built to run Propane. True AUTOMOTIVE Aproved LPG solenoids are expensive. This is all we use. The one we use retails at $75+.

#4 Hobbs pressure switchs retail at around $32

#5 We use a custom machined hi flow Needle valve. Take it and look at what is avialable at Home Depot. You will see a very small hole in the Home Depot parts. Our's is nice and open. You will also notice the 6 turn adjustability that the off the shelf parts do not have. Try tuning when you have 1 full turn. That means even a slight turn will greatly affect the output. $15 our cost

You can see we are already at $197 retail, sure you can hunt around and find better deals. Then you will need a relay, harness, many feet of wire, connectors, POL fitting ($12), many brass fittings ($15-$20), 20 feet of 250PSI High oil resistant High heat resistant GoodYear Fuel Hose $2 foot-$40

As you can see to do it correctly and not rigged with innapropriate Home Depot parts you are inching close to $300 and you have not even started to assemble the Wiring harness, the Solenoid and Regualtor assembly or tested your home made system. So for $300 shipped we have a great product at a great price and it has a great track record. It is in over 80+ cars and extensively tested.

Can you put together a kit yourself? Sure, will it work? Maybe maybe not. But for the money you save it's really not worth it.

 

[greyforestgst]

Originally posted by JayHass
greyforestgst, keep in mind that adding propane is the same as fuel dumping. Richen the crap out of your fuel curve and your EGT will go down the same without propane. Propane just doesn't smoke like gasoline when running pig rich.

The real test is to get it on a dyno, do back to back runs.

thats basically what im doing right now, without any fuel controller yet.

it is injecting at 15psi, so ive upped the propane "shot" a bit. what im trying to do is find the sweet spot; have the tank regulated to spew just enough fuel to compensate what the injectors can't push exactly at the manifold pressure my boost controller is set at. 90% of my run is at that pressure anyways, so im going to try and find that sweet spot; get it to say 870 max egt to try and hit stoich. ive heard people say 900 is a pretty good temp to hit at the top of 3rd or so. all i have to go on is egts, like i said, so i have to kind of guess as to the most powerful air/fuel.

tonight i ####ed around a little bit. cranked the needle valve up to one full turn after i changed the hobbs (by the way, i wouldn't say its 7 - 14psi, id say 7 - 30 or something astronomical). did a 3rd gear pull up to 7000rpm and topped at a piddly 820*c. smelled my exhaust...hmm, whos firing up a bbq pit? just a little rich, wouldnt you say? still pulled pretty nicely, but will take the needle valve back down a little bit and push the boost up a little bit, trying to wring the most power out of my limited tuning setup right now.
i swear the ipo kit has enough turns in that needle valve to outflow 880cc's. im only using 3/4 turn at 60psi reg pressure.

as for dyno pulls, a friend is supposedly setting up a dyno day for trs, so i might head on down. im definately (probably (hopefully)) heading to the track tomorrow.

 

[Dallas J]

What effect does propane have on o2 sensors? Does it contain lead?

-Dallas J

 

[greyforestgst]

Originally posted by Dallas J
What effect does propane have on o2 sensors? Does it contain lead?

-Dallas J

propane is c3h8
havent heard anything negative reguarding o2 sensors

 

[mstangmorgan]

Where can I get one of these kits?

 

[-=TWITCH=-]

I know that you are running propane without any other fuel mods, How is this working for you. Some say that you just fuel dump to fix your problem without proper tunning devices (safc Logger) Do you think its worth it? I mean new 550's cost the same as a propane kit? Would it be better to just get propane now and run it like greyforestgst because im on a tight budget.

TWITCH

 

[zac83]

Originally posted by Imp Pwr Online


#1 propane is not 140 octane. It is on average 110

Drip gas isnt propane: drip gas is white gas from an oil derek... 140 +-10 octane ratings and its free like i said.

sorry to give the impression that making a propane injection kit is 'dirt cheap'. its just that ive got just about all the parts laying around at my shop. your price is pretty good - my point of that was before you try to buy a water injection kit, look around at what they sell propane kits for: they're just as cheap when you get down to making one yourself.

 

[eyebrowski]

i have been in a few discussions about why propane kills knock like it does. after testing the temp of the propane being injected this is not a factor... i also do not believe the octane of the propane had much if anyhting to do with it, think of how much propane you are actually injecting

"This seems to show propane is about 7% of the fuel(1:14). However, propane is a gas once it leaves the tank, not a liquid, so it apparently displaces more air. I read that propane in liquid form is 1/270th of its volume as a gas. If this factor is ignored and we assume 11:1 air/fuel ratio at WOT it looks like the ratio of propane to air is only about 1:154 (1:11x1:14)"
quote from a lengthy discussion at dsmtalk http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showt...e=25&highlight=propane AND ratio&pagenumber=6

this would mean the ~114 oct prop would have VERY minimal effect to the overall octane rating of the pump gas...

this led us to the question, if its not octane and not cooling what is it?
our concesus:

the propane in its gascious state has much better atomization with the air than a liquid gasoline being sprayed into the cylinders does. when the propane enters the cylinder it expands to fill the complete cylinder with fuel instead of a fine mist being provided by the injectors. by filling the entire cylinder we are able to help eliminate hot spots caused by lack of fuel at certain spots in the cylinder.

i have been running propane for quite a while now so if you have any questions please feel free to ask. i generally had the lean the AFC out 7% in areas where propane was being introduced and i netted a 4-5psi gain without any additional knock.

 

[larryd]

So where is everyone actually getting their Propane kits from?

 

[-=TWITCH=-]

Originally posted by larryd
So where is everyone actually getting their Propane kits from?

http://www.importpoweronline.com/

 

[larryd]

thanks..

 

[Defiant]

this would mean the ~114 oct prop would have VERY minimal effect to the overall octane rating of the pump gas...

the propane in its gascious state has much better atomization with the air than a liquid gasoline being sprayed into the cylinders does. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well.. kinda nitpickey, but if it's gaseous, it's past atomization (teenie fuel droplets) and down to vapor.

The "114 oct.....minimal effect" could still be a goodly part it, as you're already on such a borderline with gasoline that the knock sensor will keep the pin in your motor's grenade.

I was always curious about what Smokey Yunick was up to with his "hot fuel vapor" Rabbit (cut some slack, it was very long ago), where he was working in some way with a heater on the gas line.

With Aquamist getting many hundreds for a (undoubtedly very nice, but still British and electric, two things never comfortable together) mere pump, and tagging on a lot more for a pretty simple water injection kit, the propane sounds like a much better benefit-per-dollar.

 

[JayHass]

Originally posted by Defiant
With Aquamist getting many hundreds for a (undoubtedly very nice, but still British and electric, two things never comfortable together) mere pump, and tagging on a lot more for a pretty simple water injection kit, the propane sounds like a much better benefit-per-dollar.

FYI I paid just over $300 for the Aquamist kit and it's more than just a pump, and a couple nozzles.

#1 the pump is not just a washer type pump. It's designed to provide over 75psi of pressure with enough flow to support a 1mm jet (In my case).

#2 The nozzles are pattented because of their design. You can't get them from any other system which is why even home made kits 99.9% of the time use the AQM nozzles.

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You don't get that with a washer pump.

#3 If you go beyond the basic kit you are able to map the water just like a stand alone fuel control.

It's more than just a simple pump and a few nozzles tossed in. Try building a kit with a decent flo-jet pump, AQM nozzles and a quality hobbes switch and you will at just about the same cost.

 

[Imp Pwr Online]

I have to second that. I personally have the Aquamist 1s (we are dealers) and the pump is built like a tank. 75psi? Actually Peak pressure can go as high as 250psi. It is not, as stated, a w/w pump. It is a nice kit. We tried 50% alky with mediocre results. We could only get 2-3 psi more out of pump. With propane we get 5-6 psi more from pump. Possibly more but our 17Gs only go to 22psi to redline.

One factor to remember is that electrical pumps that are found in alky setups have a higher failure rate then a fuel Solenoid found in propane systems.

 

[boosted59]

damn it I wanna put my propane kit in! So will watching EGT's even really do anything for tuning or can I just go by watching O2 voltage? Thats how I've always tuned in the past. You know what. F-ck it I'm just going to put it in and see what happens...........................