Pre turbo methanol/water injection kit?

[AWD 90 Tsi]

Would these be ok to use? I didnt know if spraing the water/meth through the turbo then the ic would be ok, let me know what you guys think cause i can get a kit cheap.

 

[EclipseTrbo420A]

Dont do it, for as fast as the compressor spins the only thing you want touching it is air.

 

[donmagicjuan]

Agreed, here are my thoughts from the other day on it:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?p=151013208#post151013208

 

[GreddyGst]

^^ yea don't do it, also meth is corrisive to aluminum and eat up the fins. Just inject meth through the upper pipe so it enters the intake manifold > engine and it won't harm anything because everything is soo hot in there there is just like a mist and is gone.

 

[EclipseTrbo420A]

Three of the greatest DSMTuners agree here, Our will be done! haha But really....Look into the Devils own Waterinjection. They have good customer service and are a bit cheaper.

 

[AWD 90 Tsi]

Yea i figured id be bad but the pump is only 15psi so id have to get something better to overcome the boost in the upper ic pipe to inject it

 

[AWD 90 Tsi]

Also can you guys tell me the RIGHT way to route the hoses into a catch can with just a inlet and outlet w/ no breather?? The search showed 1 post with 5 different ways to do it but none seemed right!?!?!?

 

[EclipseTrbo420A]

Yea i figured id be bad but the pump is only 15psi so id have to get something better to overcome the boost in the upper ic pipe to inject it

If you get a prooven kit you will find they often use shurflo pumps or either 100 or 150 psi.

 

[AWD 90 Tsi]

Yea I started to look at them, any idea about the catch can?

 

[donmagicjuan]

If you have a catch can like this, installation is pretty simple. Route the line from the valve cover to one fitting and route the other to the port on the intake pipe.

 

[ttawd3s]

Just wondering.... Out of all the guys that posted how pre-turbo W/I can damage compressor wheels etc, how many of those guys have tried it ? Since you haven't tired it, how did you come up with that information, besides just.... Well... Guessing... 10 years ago, many people said not to use nitrous b/c it would blow your motor up....

Not saying pre-turbo W/I is good, but I'm trying to find people with REAL WORLD knowledge of it. Not, " this guy on a WRX forum did it, and it didn't work" or some dude with a TD benz did it and it chewed his compressor wheel up. What were the set-ups ? 60psi nitrous foggers ? or 180psi surflo pumps with a M1 nozzle ?

Odvously, between the IC and TB is best, but would a much smaller nozzle in the inlet hurt if added to a normal kit ? Would it gains be worth the trouble ?

Forgot to meantion Formula 1 turbo'd engines had pre-turbo W/I at one point....

 

[wret]

Like jumping off a building, you don't have to do it yourself to understand what happens.

Pre-turbo water injection has been done. It won't blow up or anything but long-term erosion of the compressor wheel will result. Granted, this was probably due to using low pressure and course water droplets and without a pump. Many early systems used boost pressure to force the water in before the turbo. It's difficult to get fine water droplets without higher pressure.

 

[donmagicjuan]

Forgot to meantion Formula 1 turbo'd engines had pre-turbo W/I at one point....

This kind of logic is seldom rational when translated to the average tuner modifying his street car. You're forgetting to consider the relatively limitless budget of a Formula 1 racing team and the average usable life of a turbo on one of their cars.

Many of us are interested in power modifications that enable us to reach our goals while minimizing the cost of repairs and replacement. Case in point: rally-style antilag systems work remarkably well to combat the lag issues between shifts on a turbocharged engine, but would you use one on your own private vehicle? Probably not, because over time they destroy turbos, and most of us can't afford to replace them that often.

I don't think anyone has contended that pre-turbo WI setups won't work; that much is pretty obvious. The concern lies in the detrimental effects over time. If you want to run one and are confident that you can get the fluid to completely vaporize in the short time between the nozzle and the compressor wheel, then go for it. We would all likely benefit from your experiences, be them good or bad.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

also meth is corrisive to aluminum and eat up the fins.

Just to clearify a little, yes this is true, and since the meth will not be vaporized before the fins this will happen. When injecting it in to the TB, and through the IM, to the head (alum.) it is burned up so quickly there are not problems.
As for the Formula 1 comment, sure, but there are companies that make billions of $$$ a year, and whats the cost of 1 turbo every 1-2 races for all that publicity? Im sure it works, and like Don said, no one is contesting this fact...but is it worth while I say no, if you have the spare cash to buy a new turbo every other week or every week because the meth doesn't vaporize before the turbines, then go ahead. More power to you. I will stick with my original plans of injecting it in 3"s before the TB.

Dustin

 

[ttawd3s]

Good post guys !!

Yea, I get what your saying about the F1 thing. But I guess that does cement the fact it works.

Want to clarify that I have regualr W/I between the TB and IC, and I don't plan on changing that, period. It works great, and there isn't any denying that. The problem ( in my case speficlly ) is that I have a big 2.4L and a Td04-15 turbo. The compressor is just out of air, peroid. Which leads me to pre-turbo W/I since its known to improve or shift the compressor map, meaning it can effectively help the turbo push more air. I'm not interested in upgrading the turbo, I like my car to look stock under the hood.

What I really wonder about is, where is all this, "damaged compressor wheels in 5 seconds" info coming from ? Who's set-up was it ? Were they using a real system or a bunch of BS ? Big difference between a $20 inline fuel pump and some left over nitrous foggers spraying your compressor wheel, and something worth while, like a 180psi surflo pump, a M1 nozzle, and progressive controller.

Everyone ( including my-self ) has always thought pre-turbo W/I had these issues ( like the alum. being eaten or the compressor wheel damage ), but really, where'd this info come from ?

I mean, people talked about nitrous blowing cars to peices in the early 90s ( which is did due to crappy parts/ systems and poorly designed kits ), but now look around. A LOT of people run nitrous and never have issues ( I may self am on my 9th bottle of 100shot on my neon, and put 9 bottles through my ole 89' SOHC civic with 158K miles without any issues ). Point is... People said it would blow your car up, eat your pistons, and destory your rings, now.... Yea right, nitrous is sometimes more reliable then upping boost on a car with stock injectors...

People say these things, yet... No one has PERSONAL EXPERENCE, and no one KNOWS ANYONE PERSONALY that has had this experence. Why ? B/c internet myths spread fast, and no one has any idea, weither or not a proper chance was given to pre-turbo W/I ( IE: new technogoy jets/pumps/controllers ).

If I had a 100% stock turbo.... I'd be all over it, hehehe ( stock SRT4 turbos are pretty damn cheap really ). But... My turbo isn't your average stock SRT4 turbo. People said, " upgrading the stock turbo isn't cost effective, and will not result in almost ANY gains". Well... 101whp and 120TQ later, that was a "internet myth" disposed itsself... And now I'm the 2nd stock turbo'd SRT4 to run 11's without nitrous ( but I have 100shot too, hehe )

I damn sure don't know anyone personally that has done pre-turbo W/I... If I were to do it, the SRT4 guys would be the last to know, hehehe. I'd let everyone along believeing what ever they want.

More on the tech side... Meth being injected at 180psi through a jet smaller than prob. any nitrous fogger, into a SUPER HIGH vaccum would almost DEFFINATELY vaporize instantly, if for no other reason than the presure change for 180psi to super vaccum.

Another thing I wonder about with these "internet pics" we see.... Were they using tap water ? tap water contains iron

I will agree this wouldn't be something for a beginner to try, and it really is a band-aid for having too small of a turbo...

Not sure if I meantioned it, but I saw a machinal set-up on a semi-truck TD. It was pre-turbo. It used the turbo's presure to boost a tank with meth. A valve opened once the tank reached a set PSI. They said it was purely "power injection", another words, without tuning for it. IF the system failed, the truck would just lose power, but it was all machinal, so failure wasn't the issue. The 15 gallon tank was too small, and meth was too expensive to be filling a larger tank all the time... It stock on a detoit semi. Those guys don't play with reliablity, so I can't beleive they'd do that if it risked the truck not running ( aka killing the turbo ) and those things for millions of miles...

 

[90gst_sean]

I dont have water injection yet , but I did read this thread and dont recall anyone saying pre turbo injection kills your turbo in five seconds.

However, (ttawd3s) you do seem to have a grasp of the technology involved and to each his own; so if you really want to know, theres no experience like the hands on kind.

I think you should give it a try and get back to us in six month or so. Make sure and take before and after pictures of the turbo and post them for all to see.

 

[GVR4592]

Forget Pre-turbo and Post turbo, put it IN the turbo.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Everyone ( including my-self ) has always thought pre-turbo W/I had these issues ( like the alum. being eaten or the compressor wheel damage ), but really, where'd this info come from ?

Stupid me... and here I thought I would never use that organic chemistry class...

6 CH3OH + Al2O3 → 2 Al(OCH3)3 + 3 H2O

Methanol reacts with the protective aluminum oxide coating that forms on aluminum parts forming methoxide salts.

Once the aluminum oxide coating is gone, the methanol then oxidizes the pure aluminum, further eroding it.

6 CH3OH + 4 Al → 2 Al2(OCH3)3 + 3 H2

The process is limited by a few factors, so it won't necessarily eat through your turbo and pipes immediately, but the effects are noticeable given a few months of use.


Besides that, you can only evaporate so much methanol and water into the incoming air before it gets saturated. At that point, no matter what you do, any additional water or methanol you add will precipitate from the incoming air charge.

This problem isn't of much concern when the water/alky injector nozzle is placed closer to the TB because the air, at that point, remains turbulent enough to keep the liquid in an aerosol state for the short period of time before it reaches the combustion chamber.


The point is, all those claims were not unfounded. Methanol/aluminum corrosion is a real problem, and it's best to place the injector nozzle close to the TB unless you truly have a very short piping route.