pick a turbo (FP Green, BR20G, ETE32)

[Revenant]

Why don't you call obert at Forced Performance and ask him about Daniel at DSM-Performance?

mmm, maybe that's because Robert is a gentleman and a professional, and bad mouthing a competitor would be highly unethical?

Just because Robert refrains from commenting on DSM Perf, it doesn't mean he condones,approves or agrees with everything they do...that's a strange leap of logic there, NosLaser.

...I'll have an ETE42 on my car...

I thought we weren't commenting on things we have no direct experience with? "coulda, woulda, shoulda" have no place in a fact finding discussion.

The ETE32 will spool faster, and make more top end power than the Green though.

Prove it with dyno numbers or timeslips. But until proof is shown, this is just theory and an opinion, NOT a fact.

f need be, I'll be the one to prove the power potential.

I think you'll have to. FP has PLENTY of PROVEN TRACK timeslips on their site. Where are the ones for DSM Performance?

 

[NosLaser]

...mmm, maybe that's because Robert is a gentleman and a professional, and bad mouthing a competitor would be highly unethical?

Just because Robert refrains from commenting on DSM Perf, it doesn't mean he condones,approves or agrees with everything they do...that's a strange leap of logic there, NosLaser. ...

Before you go off on a ridiculous unwarranted tangent, listen to what I am saying. Forget Forced Performance. Forget DSM-Performance. Ask Robert what he thinks of Daniel. PERIOD. He knows him on a PERSONAL level, not just a performance shop level. It would have NOTHING to do with Ethics, NOTHING to do with slandering a business or a company. I'm talking on a personal level.


...Prove it with dyno numbers or timeslips. But until proof is shown, this is just theory and an opinion, NOT a fact....

We did with Rich's 95 Talon at the time. But people decided to ignore that like it never happened. If a grenade goes off in your lap, it's pretty likely that you will die. But, since it's never happened to you, why don't you go prove it? There are some things out there that are just FACTS, that don't need to be proven. The T3 hi-flow wheel has less pitch, and moves more air than a TDO6 wheel. Go ahead and disprove that with ANY amount of factual evidence you want. You'll find that you can't. Call Garrett. Call Turbonetics. Have a nice day...

Regards,

 

[NosLaser]

...I think you'll have to. FP has PLENTY of PROVEN TRACK timeslips on their site. Where are the ones for DSM Performance?...

If it was my shop, my decision, I would have, because I know your average consumer doesn't know enough about turbochargers to make their own ascertation. They want to see dyno numbers and timeslips because that's what they understand. If you look on Forced Performance's site, you'll see that there are what, 21 names on their list? 21 people that have gone fast on a Forced Performance turbo? (I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, so don't think that I only believe 21 people have gone fast) 2 of which aren't on Green/Red/FP28, etc turbos (including the fastest one.) Point being, I think the Forced Performance crowd has a lot more hardcore people than the DSM-Performance crowd. I'll give that to you hands down. By that same token, a Green owner by the name of Keith Kummer (Tractionless) knows me personally, knows my background, and as of a conversation last night as a matter of fact, knows exactly what the Green and Red turbos are, what goes into them, and also their shortcommings. He's got one of those turbos on his car, and we're gonna make big power with it, because that is what we do. I could care less what turbo is on there. I'm gonna make power with it. So when my ETE42 is on, I will post dyno charts and timeslips. It's a little ways away, but not that far away, as I too am a human being with bills other than my car.

Regards,

 

[Revenant]

OK, disclaimer here- this is my opinion, not a statement of fact-

I personally would not care so much as consumer whether they like each other, etc, as much as the proof of the products performance.

Exhibit one:

FP Times- PROVEN AT THE TRACK

Exhibit two:Extreme Customer cars 12's? Big deal.

Even if you play it by odds alone...you can see the numbers being generated.

This quote I find very cringe inducing-

...we don't think his car has even been on the 1320 more than a few times in it's life, but ...

Again, as a consumer, in my OPINION, I want to see proven performance.

as I too am a human being with bills other than my car.

Now that I can understand. Same here.
Kind regards, Revenant

 

[jdmawd]

I personally would not care so much as consumer whether they like each other, etc, as much as the proof of the products performance.

Since you have not limited this example, to the turbos larryd the *thread starter wanted information about. ill give you a more accurate example, since you want to speak about any and every car powered by a fP turbo. Why don't we do the same for dsm-performance

try this

Sean glazer

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8.87@153mph, the single fastest unibody dsm ever built. is/was powered by dsm-performance. who cares how many second place cars a shop can build,dsm-performance builds the fastest one. proven you ask? i think so.

Even if you play it by odds alone...you can see the numbers being generated.

You are correct, the numbers say dsm-performance powers the fastest unibody dsm. forced performance does not.

If you are going to link to every fast car with a FP turbo. do the same for dsm-performance.i will say it again, compare apples to apples

is Sean's car a bad example *yup*. could Sean make 10 second passes on a box fan? most likely, however you people seem to think the turbo is the only part, that determines if a car is fast or not. so there is you're example, its so classic. that you would use full purpose built race cars. in a comparison, against street cars with a had full of mods. very typical

 

[Revenant]

So? Buschur did 7.94 at 171.66 ...what's your point?

Maybe I should limit the apples and oranges to "streetable" turbos...after all, we could nitpick about a million details that will affect a car's performance beside the turbo. It is a complex system after all. You, my sophisticly argumentative friend, are missing the picture. If we limit the turbo selection to streetable cars that go fast, look at the links I posted above. DSM Perf. has a couple, FP has 2 dozen. And let's not forget that even if they did not design all their turbos (t3-T04, etc), they sure as hell built them.

I also see from your profile that you own a Mutt. I am sure that causes no bias in your opinion, hmmm?

No soup for you, JDM!

 

[thorin]

Gee, and I just bet Sean is running an off the shelf turbo, right? What happened to apples to apples?

--Thorin

 

[sunflashx]

So much controversy with mutt turbos.

So little controversy concerning FP turbos.

The real question is "Can I save a few hundred bucks by cheaping out and getting a mutt turbo that might not work well, but will work ok?" and "Is ok good enough for me?"

 

[jdmawd]

So? Buschur did 7.94 at 171.66 ...what's your point?

is buschurs turbo built by any of the builders being discussed?

let's not forget that even if they did not design all their turbos (t3-T04, etc), they sure as hell built them.

very good point that brings me back to glazer.

I also see from your profile that you own a Mutt. I am sure that causes no bias in your opinion, hmmm?

i am not biased, my position is based on customer service, product explanation, and over all cost. i will not give my money to any vender/manufacture who's only selling point is its fast. no explanation on required supporting mods, nothing just a price a flow number. as a semi new dsm owner i need more information about my purchase than some dude i don't know ran X number x amount of times. I was treated with respect and dignity when purchasing my turbo. that's why I own one and that's why i stand by them. I will not do business with jerks. the crew at extreme turbo, has always given me top flight service, and help. thats way more impotant to me, than some race car went 10 this, and 11 that. big whoop, the bolt on garrett line from extreme turbo, is very capable of what i want out of a turbo. when they release their ball bearing turbo i will buy that to. im loyal to where i am treated well.

 

[jdmawd]

Originally posted by thorin
Gee, and I just bet Sean is running an off the shelf turbo, right? What happened to apples to apples?

--Thorin

His link included non shelf, purpose built race cars. My comparison was in compliance with his criteria. he used FP powered race cars, i used dsm-performace powered race cars. thus, apples to apples. dsm-performanc has bigger apples in their basket

 

[NosLaser]

Renevant,

When I suggested speaking to Robert about Daniel, I wasn't talking from a friendship standpoint, I was talking from a knowledge standpoint. He will vouch for Daniel's knowledge as a turbo guy. I agree though. If I had it to do myself, I would post dyno numbers and timeslips because that is what people understand. BUT, by that same token, just because we could do it doesn't mean everyone can do it. We ran 11.7 at 114 on the old style Mutt Level one, yet some people buy the Level 5 and run 13's. It's all in the person who tunes the car. I've said it before; I'll make power on whatever turbo you give me. This is a rhetorical question, but what would it take to 'prove' the turbo? If I go out and make 550+ wheel HP with the ETE42 in my car, does that prove the Mutt turbo because there are still umteen hundred yoyo's out there only making 250 wheel HP with the Mutt. See where I am going with this? There's only so much you can do to prove something. Unless you know each wheel in and out, and know how to read a compressor map, and really know about turbos, then there is no way your average Joe is going to understand what makes the ETE32 a nicer turbo than a Green. See what I mean?

Regards,

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

How many times do we all have to argue about this !! I apologize to larry but when he started this thread he new this was going to happen.

I say to larry pick the turbo you want the looks the best and has the best price for you.

Later,

 

[2-0turbo]

I think part of the controversy surrounding the Mutts is that yes, there is not much data out there on them. I (and many others) have them sitting at home and have not gotten them installed yet. I don't really have the mods to be running my ETE32 right now, so it is not installed. When I am ready, it will get bolted on. Probably in the fall sometime. I know there are others in my situation. We'll get to the track when we can. : )

 

[BatmanGSX]

Originally posted by jdmawd


Since you have not limited this example, to the turbos larryd the *thread starter wanted information about. ill give you a more accurate example, since you want to speak about any and every car powered by a fP turbo. Why don't we do the same for dsm-performance

try this

Sean glazer

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8.87@153mph, the single fastest unibody dsm ever built. is/was powered by dsm-performance. who cares how many second place cars a shop can build,dsm-performance builds the fastest one. proven you ask? i think so.

This is really fu@kin' stupid. What level does Sean have? Can I get the same turbo? Just because DSM-P is a middle man for the full Garrett turbo Sean is using doesn't mean that he is running a "Mutt" in any way shape or form.

Sean: I'd like you to order me some new parts from Garrett.
DSM-P: Okay, sir, which part numbers?

Proven my fu@king ass.

 

[jdmawd]

Originally posted by BatmanGSX


This is really fu@kin' stupid. What level does Sean have? Can I get the same turbo? Just because DSM-P is a middle man for the full Garrett turbo Sean is using doesn't mean that he is running a "Mutt" in any way shape or form.

Sean: I'd like you to order me some new parts from Garrett.
DSM-P: Okay, sir, which part numbers?

Proven my fu@king ass.

i can see you have a reading and comprehension problem, so i will explain that post in baby talk, so you can understand. when R.e.v.e.n.a.n.t used every fast dsm powered by FP, as a gauge to the FP product being proven by its customer base. not limited to green turbos, *still with me*? as an example of their ability to build/assemble a big numbers turbo. i used the same example on the dsm-performance end, with glazers car. see how that works, see how that has nothing to do with MUTT turbos. i can make a quick animation for you, if my response was to complex for you to understand.

also you dont know what turbo glazer has in his car do you sport?

 

[NosLaser]

I do. Brwahahaha!

Regards,

 

[NosLaser]

I'll be the scapegoat. I'm going to have an ETE42 on my car and lay down some killer dyno numbers, and run a killer track time, and then sell this stupid piece of import bullsh!t and get a real car.

Regards,

 

[jdmawd]

Originally posted by NosLaser
I'll be the scapegoat. I'm going to have an ETE42 on my car and lay down some killer dyno numbers, and run a killer track time, and then sell this stupid piece of import bullsh!t and get a real car.

Regards,

wow dude that's deep, you sound like me with the mustang. but i decided i didn't really care what other people thought, the point of it was to make *me* happy so i got my dsm and the mustang just sits. to prove a point about something that you deem bullsh!t seem kinda silly

 

[Ludachris]

I'd like to hear from everyone that wants a "proven" turbo to explain exactly what the term "proven" means to them. As a consumer, it would be great to be able to gauge the success of a product. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to do so. If a turbo shop posts time slips on their site, should that be enough for me to decide? If there happens to be more enthusiasts online who are using one turbo and posts their numbers, should that be enough for me? How can I ever account for the X number of people who are running fast times that everyone here (or in other forums) doesn't know about?

If everyone only went with what's popular or "proven", we'd never have any advances in the market. Why would anyone want to introduce new parts to a market that won't accept new technology or something that isn't the norm?

This is a hobby. You'll have to experience things for yourself and see what works for your car and your setup. Even if someone did bolt up 3 different turbos and got X results - who says the same will be the case for me? It's an expensive hobby where you'll have to take some chances on some high dollar items. My advice, don't base your decisions soley on what everyone here thinks, or what a shop tells you... of course, don't totally disregard that information, but I'd say there's enough evidence here to say that any of the 3 turbos you mentioned will be a good choice. Which one will be fastest for you, well, I doubt anyone here can give you a completely accurate answer. I don't own any of them, so I can't give you any useful advice. Good luck and tell us what you decide.

 

[NJGSX96]

If someone would like to put into the "Get Rich a New Turbo Fund", I will be more than happy to bolt up a Mutt turbo (ETE32 I am thinking), run it at the track and dyno it, and see the difference between that and my 16G as well as a 20G a friend has waiting to put on his car. I'll just make him wait. Any takers? I'll even pay half of the turbo, all dyno time and all track/race gas fees. Please?

 

[Revenant]

We'll get to the track when we can. : )

That's the right attitude!

and just for the record, the turbo I just got which will hopefully be bolted on in 2 weeks, is a Turbo Specialties Hybrid...not a MUTT, or FP or AGP!

I'll come back with more details after the track!

Ludachris- Nicely put in the above post.

 

[Ludachris]

Originally posted by Revenant
Ludachris- Nicely put in the above post.

Appreciate it. It's too often that people choose sides after reading threads like this. Hopefully I can help prevent some of that.

 

[IPT]

Originally posted by dyezak
I agree with going with the proven turbo's. The 20g and the Green are proven, and unfortunatly I've know two guys who were running the Green and went to a mutt and (one guy) litterally threw the Mutt away (Ross Cox). He ran a 11.2 on the green but couldnt get out of the 12's with the Mutt (lv. 5). He went to a red and is running 10.2's now in a 2g AWD Automatic. Go with what is proven...I'm giving up on my 19c and going full garret and garret manifold. Gotta go to the proven turbo's.

Last time I checked Ross Cox was running a T3/T4 turbo. Full garrett set up. He is also only running 10.5's which is still damn good.

 

[IPT]

Originally posted by BatmanGSX


This is really fu@kin' stupid. What level does Sean have? Can I get the same turbo? Just because DSM-P is a middle man for the full Garrett turbo Sean is using doesn't mean that he is running a "Mutt" in any way shape or form.

Sean: I'd like you to order me some new parts from Garrett.
DSM-P: Okay, sir, which part numbers?

Proven my fu@king ass.

I will bet you $500 that is not the way it is done. This is on the internet and will stand if you would like to take me up on my offer, but be ready to pay out if you do.



Larryd here is a car that does not have as much done as your car. It is a FWD and a daily driver. http://www.dsm-performance.com/catalog/john_cozad.php There is everything that he has done to the car on there so you can see what it takes to run that time and even then you will still have to be able to tune the car.

It would be nice if FP would post the other mods that were done to the cars on there hall of fame page. I have not found a page with some one that has a Green with a FWD car yet. I will keep looking that gives more info than saying "you can run X with this turbo" All the turbo does is compress and move air. How efficently your motor flows and uses that air is entirely up to everything else.

 

[larryd]

guys im sorry this had to turn into a war type post between the FP and Extreme guru's out there.. Even after everything posted here Im really still up in the air on what to do and its basically a question that I could go around forever with. I think wether i go with the ETE32 or the Green Im going to have a bad arse car either way.. The ETE32 is alot cheaper then the Green thats a definite but it just seems so many people have no faith in their products which is usually all the more reason for me to jump on it and give it a shot.. oh well decision will be made sometime today.. Green or ETE32... I might have to toss a coin..