Opinions wanted on my head setup

[frankozz]

On the 19th of this month I will be receiving around $700 and I want to do a little bit of head work on my car. This is the list of stuff that I want to buy.

Cometic Head gasket and ARP Head studs. http://www.extremepsi.com/store/cust...cat=458&page=1

OEM or Greddy timing belt. http://www.extremepsi.com/store/cust...cat=865&page=1

http://www.extremepsi.com/store/cust...at=1029&page=1

I have a friend that can get me Brian Crower cams for $220, spring and retainers for $175. New I plan on sticking with my 16g for a good while so I was thinking 264/264. Or would 264/272 be better?

What do you guys think? My steup will be a fully supported 16g tuned with a keydiver chip and SAFC. And I will be running around 20 psi.

 

[e85_4g63]

First fill out your profile so we know what we're dealing with here. There is a big difference between the small 16g and the EVO III 16g. Cams aren't going to be that great right now if your car has a stock exhaust, intake and fuel system. We need to know more about your current setup before we can provide you with usable information. That being said, I'll wait for a reply....

 

[Dsmj89]

How much power are you looking to make first of all ?

 

[frankozz]

Sorry about that, I have:

Stock rebuilt 6 bolt .20 over with ARP rod bolts.
Rebuilt tranny.
2g ported exhaust manifold.
Evo3 16g.
AMS 680cc injectors.
Rewired walbro 255 fuel pump.
Fuel lab AFPR
2g maf.
K&N filter and custom intake.
FMIC.
Greddy type S bov.
2.5 soon to be 3 inch TBE.
Ebay o2 dump.
Stage 2 clutch.
MBC.
Tuned using stage 3 keydiver chip, SAFC2, wideband and logger. That's all I can think of right now. I figured next step.

I don't have power goals, I want to maximize the 16g setup.

 

[Dsmj89]

I would say a 264/272 setup is good, it's a streetable set, but you said you wanted to max the 16g so a 272/272 combo should do you good with plenty of flow on the intake and exh. Remember you might give in just a little response down low but it'll make up for it up top.

 

[e85_4g63]

Ok, thanks for the update.

First, (like Dsmj89 mentioned above), at this point I feel that the 272 / 272 combo would be a good choice. The 264 is a good cam, but I feel, it doesn't help the bottom end enough to merit the loss in top end pull over the 272 cam. Another thing to keep in mind with the BC cams is that they are known for not being on center with stock cams. To get the most from BC cams, you'll want a set of adjustable cam gears, and to degree the cams in when you install them.

Second, what fuel are you using for your setup. The EVO III is a great little turbo, but anything over 22 psi and your beating the s**t out of it. I know you said your only setting the boost to "around 20 psi" so I just thought I'd throw that out there for you.

Third, I recommend the Power Enterprise timing belt (it's Kevlar reinforced just like the HKS and Greddy ones, but it's cheaper, which is a plus for us DSM owners!). I don't want to say anything bad about the Cometic head gasket, but I haven't had good luck with them.

Others: Do you have a BSE kit installed when you rebuilt the motor? If so you may need to do some porting to keep the oil pressure in check as it will over run the seals in the turbo. Also you'll want to contact Jeff (dsmchips) and let me know you'll be upping the boost. He can set your chip up to make things much more managable with the SAFC. Overall I'd say your setup looks good and your doing things in the right order.(lik

 

[frankozz]

That's the thing... I don't want to sacrifice my low end too much... I have heard that with a 16g the ideal setup is 264/272... Hmm... Also what do you think about the cometic head gasket and Greddy timing belt?

 

[Dsmj89]

If so you may need to do some porting to keep the oil pressure in check as it will over run the seals in the turbo.

It won't overrun the seals, in fact, it would be better for the engine in a way, as there is now more oil pressure, therefore keeping the engine lubricated even better.

 

[Dsmj89]

That's the thing... I don't want to sacrifice my low end too much... I have heard that with a 16g the ideal setup is 264/272... Hmm... Also what do you think about the cometic head gasket and Greddy timing belt?

If you want streetable cams then get a 264/272 set and call it a day.
As for the head gasket, get a mitsubishi 4 layer mls, and for the timing belt, a mitsubishi oem timing belt would be more than enough at this point.

 

[frankozz]

Ok, thanks for the update.

First, (like Dsmj89 mentioned above), at this point I feel that the 272 / 272 combo would be a good choice. The 264 is a good cam, but I feel, it doesn't help the bottom end enough to merit the loss in top end pull over the 272 cam. Another thing to keep in mind with the BC cams is that they are known for not being on center with stock cams. To get the most from BC cams, you'll want a set of adjustable cam gears, and to degree the cams in when you install them.

Second, what fuel are you using for your setup. The EVO III is a great little turbo, but anything over 22 psi and your beating the s**t out of it. I know you said your only setting the boost to "around 20 psi" so I just thought I'd throw that out there for you.

Third, I recommend the Power Enterprise timing belt (it's Kevlar reinforced just like the HKS and Greddy ones, but it's cheaper, which is a plus for us DSM owners!). I don't want to say anything bad about the Cometic head gasket, but I haven't had good luck with them.

Others: Do you have a BSE kit installed when you rebuilt the motor? If so you may need to do some porting to keep the oil pressure in check as it will over run the seals in the turbo. Also you'll want to contact Jeff (dsmchips) and let me know you'll be upping the boost. He can set your chip up to make things much more managable with the SAFC. Overall I'd say your setup looks good and your doing things in the right order.(lik

So you think it would be best to go 272/272 with adjustable cam gears?

My car is still in the process of being tuned, I haven't tuned it yet, I am currently running wastegate pressure boost. About 9 psi. I will be using 91 octane and I will up the boost until I see knock and then go back down a bit.

Power enterprise timing belt is $149.99
Power Enterprise 4g63 Kevlar Timing Belt (DSM / Evo) - Modern Automotive Performance

Greddy is $129.95
EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts - GReddy Extreme Timing Belt : Mitsubishi Eclipse 90-99 *Overstock Sale!*

What head gasket do you recommend then? and balance shafts are still in the car. and I already got a chip from Jeff.

 

[e85_4g63]

Everyone has to decide how much they can and cannot live with (power band wise). The thing with the EVO III 16g is that it won't be making full boost till post 3500rpm's (more then likely since you don't have the timing control with the dsmchip and AFC that you would with say AEM or Link). One of the main reasons I recommended going with the 272/272 combo over the 272/264 is that 1) the 264 looses to much top end to merit it's lower rpm loss's and 2) if you decide to run a bigger turbo in the future and/or more boost with race fuel the 272 will outshine the 264. When I say bottom end I mean any off boost situation. You have to decide what your wants and needs are and go from there. I would say more then 95% of us on here plan on doing things to make our cars more powerful in the future then they are now. But I don't know your particular situation.

To Dsmj89, I don't mean this to discredit you in anyway or to be ignorant towards you so please don't take this the wrong way but, at 7K rpm, with the BS eliminated and no porting of the oil relief valve it is not unusual to see oil pressure above 130 psi. You can ask any vendor that supports this site, or any vendor that sells turbos for that matter, if they think pushing 130 pounds of oil pressure through ANY turbo is a good idea and I wouldn't doubt there answer would support my findings (high oil pressure like that will push oil past the turbine seal, I've done it to a 14b personally with my own car). Again like I said, I'm not saying this to discredit you, it's just that I don't want to see anything bad happen to the OP's turbo, like what happened to my turbo. Your recommendation of the the Mitsu MLS head gasket and OEM timing belt are good ones indeed. I just throw the PE timing belt option out there because I assumed the OP wanted a kevlar enforced timing belt over the OEM one. You are correct though, the OEM timing belt is more then enough at this point. The 16g doesn't make power post 7K rpms so reving the motor to the moon, in which case would stress the timing belt much more, isn't a big concern.

 

[e85_4g63]

So you think it would be best to go 272/272 with adjustable cam gears?

My car is still in the process of being tuned, I haven't tuned it yet, I am currently running wastegate pressure boost. About 9 psi. I will be using 91 octane and I will up the boost until I see knock and then go back down a bit.

Power enterprise timing belt is $149.99
Power Enterprise 4g63 Kevlar Timing Belt (DSM / Evo) - Modern Automotive Performance

Greddy is $129.95
EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts - GReddy Extreme Timing Belt : Mitsubishi Eclipse 90-99 *Overstock Sale!*

What head gasket do you recommend then? and balance shafts are still in the car. and I already got a chip from Jeff.

Yes I would recommend the 272/272 combo with adjustable cam gears for your setup.

I didn't realize the Greddy belts were on sale douhh haha.

I would recommend the Mitsu MLS or the SCE (ISC version) head gasket, either of the two are great choices

As a final note, you'll notice that 91 (craptane / octane) as we call it, is very weak fuel and will knock easily. Jeff does a great job with his chips! However if you didn't tell him you plan on running 20+ pounds of boost the timing maps may be a little to aggressive. 1g's have aggressive timing from the factory. With the AFC adjustments the ECU would be staying on the higher timing maps and might create problems for you. Every setup is different though so take my post's a just opinions and keep your eye on your knock count. Did Jeff up your idle at all? (you could have him set it up to idle around 900 rpm's to keep the vacuum in check). Overall I think, based on my experiences, you'll love the car with the 272's and 19 to 21 psi! The top end pull will out weigh the loss in low end power and you'll forget all about it.

 

[Dsmj89]

To Dsmj89, I don't mean this to discredit you in anyway or to be ignorant towards you so please don't take this the wrong way but, at 7K rpm, with the BS eliminated and no porting of the oil relief valve it is not unusual to see oil pressure above 130 psi. You can ask any vendor that supports this site, or any vendor that sells turbos for that matter, if they think pushing 130 pounds of oil pressure through ANY turbo is a good idea and I wouldn't doubt there answer would support my findings (high oil pressure like that will push oil past the turbine seal, I've done it to a 14b personally with my own car). Again like I said, I'm not saying this to discredit you, it's just that I don't want to see anything bad happen to the OP's turbo, like what happened to my turbo. Your recommendation of the the Mitsu MLS head gasket and OEM timing belt are good ones indeed. I just throw the PE timing belt option out there because I assumed the OP wanted a kevlar enforced timing belt over the OEM one. You are correct though, the OEM timing belt is more then enough at this point. The 16g doesn't make power post 7K rpms so reving the motor to the moon, in which case would stress the timing belt much more, isn't a big concern.

No problem man thanks for the heads up. I was skimming actually on that subject this morning and came back to this thread to correct my mistake but you beat me to it. I appreciate the discretion and correction.

 

[frankozz]

Would I need to mirror finish the block and head to install the mitsu mls?

 

[e85_4g63]

Would I need to mirror finish the block and head to install the mitsu mls?

I'm not familiar with the term "mirror finish". When you go to the machine shop, just tell the machinist that you need the surface finish on the head and block to be "40 R A" or better, they'll know what your talking about. Anything else don't be afraid to ask!

 

[DSMariano]

Interesting stuff, I was curious about the porting for lower oil pressure. In any counts, the 272/272 combo sounds like a better choice with that "down the road" upgrades. Seems doing that with adjustable cam gears would leave done in that department. Consider upgraded lifters and check those valve stem seals. I tend to be detail orientated when building I suppose. Again all opinionized on my part. It seems with what you have to work with should leave you with a good head rebuild.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

To Dsmj89, I don't mean this to discredit you in anyway or to be ignorant towards you so please don't take this the wrong way but, at 7K rpm, with the BS eliminated and no porting of the oil relief valve it is not unusual to see oil pressure above 130 psi. You can ask any vendor that supports this site, or any vendor that sells turbos for that matter, if they think pushing 130 pounds of oil pressure through ANY turbo is a good idea and I wouldn't doubt there answer would support my findings (high oil pressure like that will push oil past the turbine seal, I've done it to a 14b personally with my own car).

Where were you getting your oil supply from to the turbo? If you get the oil from the stock location on the head you won't have any problems with too much pressure. With my BSE and a 16g with the stock oil feed line the turbo only sees 25psi of oil pressure.

OP: You have a FMIC why limit yourself to 20PSI? If Jeff kept your timing conservative you could run as much boost as you want till it starts to knock. I got away with 25psi @ 17* max timing for a long time. Minimal 2-3counts oc knock. Then I just got bored. At that point added some water/meth and upped the boost some more!!

 

[e85_4g63]

Ah I completely forgot to mention this!, thank you "PrOjEcTGS" for pointing this out. I don't waste my time with feeding the turbo's of the cylinder head anymore. My comment about the oil pressure issue was intended only for oil feed lines off the OFH (oil filter housing). I'm not sure about the cylinder head pressure, as I don't bother with that location. If projectgs is correct then disreguard my advice about the porting. Thanks for pointing that out man!

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Yes... I only get 25psi from the head. On the exhaust side of the head next to the stock feed line there is a port that, when stock, is plugged off. I pulled that plug out and put my oil pressure sender for my Autometer gauge in there. The most pressure you will see from that port is 50psi when the engine is cold. Once everything is warm it reads a rock steady 25psi.

Weird, almost like Mitsu engineered it that way....

 

[e85_4g63]

Yes... I only get 25psi from the head. On the exhaust side of the head next to the stock feed line there is a port that, when stock, is plugged off. I pulled that plug out and put my oil pressure sender for my Autometer gauge in there. The most pressure you will see from that port is 50psi when the engine is cold. Once everything is warm it reads a rock steady 25psi.

Weird, almost like Mitsu engineered it that way....

Now that's thinking with your dip stick Jimmy! http://s4.mcstatic.com/thumb/237573...ol_edge_thats_thinking_with_your_dipstick.jpg