Opinions for new clutch

[420a16g]

Before I start this, yes I did search, but I'm lookin more for expierenced opinions and knowledge then manufacturer write ups and 17,000 different reviews. So here goes:

I need a new clutch, i have a CF DF right now, nothing is wrong with it but its not designed to hold 4-500hp. I probably wont ever make 500hp but I know I'm gonna be over 400hp in a couple of months. Right now I'm trying to decide between the Clutchmaster Stage 4 and the Spec stage 3+ clutch. I'v read up on both and both seem to be able to put up with the abuse im looking to give them, but I want the best one. So please put down any expierence you have had with either clutch or any knowledge you have on either, and your opinion for which would work best with my application.

Also, and this might be a dumb question, would it be better to go with a modular clutch kit or a non-modular clutch kit and then purchase a lightened flywheel? I'm not to expierenced in transmissions. Also, and i dont know if this makes a huge difference or not, i have a 420a not a 4g63.

thanx in advance guys.

 

[420a16g]

ok WTF guys? Im asking for help and no one wants to reply? then someone votes for other on the poll and doesnt even post to tell what other clutch would be good? this is phucking ridiculous.

somone for the love of God please post some opinions on these cluthes. and someone let me know if its better to go modular or non-modular.

 

[Doug99RS]

I've installed a modular spec clutch. I wasn't impressed with it due to a couple of reasons. The spring fingers that meet the release bearing were not even as if it were fastened to the rest of the modular assembly unevenly. Second was the springs that go around the circumference of the large end of those same fingers were sticking out too far. This led to the springs and mounting hardware striking the clutch release fork when the clutch pedal was released. I had to pull the transmission out twice to get it not only figured out but corrected.

This has been my ONLY experience with an aftermarket modular clutch for the NV-T350 transmission. I currently run a Mopar Performance Clutch in my neon with no problems. But I'm not running boost and don't think it will hold once it clears 200hp. I didn't vote but I figured I'd share my experience with you none the less.
Doug

 

[ericbev]

Settle down a little bit there buddy. People will get to your thread eventually, there is no need to get all flustered and start posting negatively. Posting it in the newbie forum would have gotten more attention, but the information would have probably been less technical. If you want mature responses, lead by example and act like it.

My advice would be to worry about a clutch when yours dies or starts to slip. FWD cars aerent as hard on clutches because they spin tires instead of frying discs like us AWD guys do. If you havent been dragracing alot, and you dont have a ton of miles on it, the condition of your clutch is probably just fine. The CFDF has run some damn good times and should handle your 16G equipped car just fine without slipping.

The CM stage 4 and the Spec 3+ both use metallic puck style discs. Is there any reason you would want one of these with a 16G? Are you plan on racing weekly? Metallic discs are usually reserved for racing where you are launching over and over again and the car is apart enough that you can make regular flywheel inspections. Although they pretty much never die, this is more bad than good on a street car that sees limited track use. Their grumpy (really fast) engangement characteristics and flywheel-cracking tranny-destroying friction power make them less suitable for a car that see alot of regular street driving. They are also more chatter prone, which IMO, is annoying as hell.

How many people even make a modular clutch for our cars besides exedys twin and tripple plate kits? These are typically alot more expensive and can sometimes be a PITA to get installed correctly. Better yet how many people are even running them? There is no real reason for you to consider one of these considering all the alternatives.

More reasonable, street friendly kits that I would suggest are the ACT2600 with street disc (ye old faithful), CMs stage 3 not 4,and SPECs stage 2+. Running just a heavier pressure plate than you are now, with a standard disc, will give you some added clamping power without sacraficing streetability and possibily compromising the remaining parts of your drivetrain. You pick the parts you want to break, clutch discs, or everything else.

If you have any more questions etc, I will do my best to guide you in the right direction. I hope that helps.

 

[Doug99RS]

Settle down a little bit there buddy. People will get to your thread eventually, there is no need to get all flustered and start posting negatively. Posting it in the newbie forum would have gotten more attention, but the information would have probably been less technical. If you want mature responses, lead by example and act like it.

Ditto. Your question would actually be better answered in the 2gnt with turbo forum instead of the open forum here. While it is a general drivetrain section you won't find as many people who have good recomendations for your SPECIFIC application as you would in the 2gnt turbo forum.

How many people even make a modular clutch for our cars besides exedys twin and tripple plate kits? These are typically alot more expensive and can sometimes be a PITA to get installed correctly. Better yet how many people are even running them? There is no real reason for you to consider one of these considering all the alternatives.

More reasonable, street friendly kits that I would suggest are the ACT2600 with street disc (ye old faithful), CMs stage 3 not 4,and SPECs stage 2+. Running just a heavier pressure plate than you are now, with a standard disc, will give you some added clamping power without sacraficing streetability and possibily compromising the remaining parts of your drivetrain. You pick the parts you want to break, clutch discs, or everything else.

If you have any more questions etc, I will do my best to guide you in the right direction. I hope that helps.

The 2gnt's came with modular clutches from the factory. They tend to have more options than the 4g63 guys simply for this reason. I've not read enough about either to know the pros and cons of both but I do know to convert from one to the other more parts are needed than simply a clutch disc and pressure plate. Just a friendly FYI.
Doug

 

[ericbev]

The 2gnt's came with modular clutches from the factory.

That is something I did not know. Ill slap that into the NT archives section of my head for future reference.

Do you share the rest of my sentiments?

 

[Doug99RS]

That is something I did not know. Ill slap that into the NT archives section of my head for future reference.

Do you share the rest of my sentiments?

For the most part yeah. Alot of people think they need this or that because they want to build a car that will actually require said part. Reality is they simply make the car unbearable to drive and end up down-sizing later on. I would think that someone who is building a 4-500 hp 2gnt would already have their heart set on a clutch. I dunno... just my inner monologue thinking out loud again.
D

 

[ericbev]

For the most part yeah. Alot of people think they need this or that because they want to build a car that will actually require said part. Reality is they simply make the car unbearable to drive and end up down-sizing later on. I would think that someone who is building a 4-500 hp 2gnt would already have their heart set on a clutch. I dunno... just my inner monologue thinking out loud again.
D

Exactly.

 

[420a16g]

Settle down a little bit there buddy. People will get to your thread eventually, there is no need to get all flustered and start posting negatively. Posting it in the newbie forum would have gotten more attention, but the information would have probably been less technical. If you want mature responses, lead by example and act like it.

you would be surprised how many times I'v posted a legitimate question, and it not get answered for a week or longer.

The CM stage 4 and the Spec 3+ both use metallic puck style discs. Is there any reason you would want one of these with a 16G? Are you plan on racing weekly? Metallic discs are usually reserved for racing where you are launching over and over again and the car is apart enough that you can make regular flywheel inspections. Although they pretty much never die, this is more bad than good on a street car that sees limited track use. Their grumpy (really fast) engangement characteristics and flywheel-cracking tranny-destroying friction power make them less suitable for a car that see alot of regular street driving. They are also more chatter prone, which IMO, is annoying as hell.

I realize these clutches are not the best for daily driving, or even driving around town, thats not my concern though. My concern is finding a clutch that can hold the power I need it to hold. I will be racing my car, not every weekend or daily, but occasionally. Which means I will be launching, and on top of that with my 16g and all engine mods I should get around or a little over 400hp, and I may upgrade to a 20g or larger turbo later, hence more hp. And while the CFDF clutch has been good to me, its not rated over 200hp.

Ditto. Your question would actually be better answered in the 2gnt with turbo forum instead of the open forum here. While it is a general drivetrain section you won't find as many people who have good recomendations for your SPECIFIC application as you would in the 2gnt turbo forum.

didnt wanna get bytched at by the moderators for "posting in the wrong section"

So, are both of you saying a Spec stage 3+ or a Clutchmaster stage 4 is too much for my application?? I do want a clutch thats good to drive with everyday and around town, but i also want one that can hold the abuse im going to give it. Also, I would still like to know which set up is better, a modular or non-modular?

thanx guys

 

[Doug99RS]

didnt wanna get bytched at by the moderators for "posting in the wrong section"

So, are both of you saying a Spec stage 3+ or a Clutchmaster stage 4 is too much for my application?? I do want a clutch thats good to drive with everyday and around town, but i also want one that can hold the abuse im going to give it. Also, I would still like to know which set up is better, a modular or non-modular?

thanx guys

I think posting in the NT-turbo forum would have been ok because the audience is the people that either 1. know the answer or 2. want to hear the answer.

We could probably answer your question a little better with some more information about the car. As it sits right now exactly what are your modifications? How often do you drive the car on the street/not aggressively? And what have been your experiences with it as far as slippage, tire grippage, part failures and the like? If we know the answers to the above then we could probably answer your question better. After answering those please also tell us what modifications you plan on putting in to the car to reach those hp numbers you're shooting for. What kind of time frame from today are you working off of to get there? And once you get there what is the car's destiny as far as how much you will drive it NOT at the race track?

Once you answer ALL of that stuff there then the people reading your pole might have a bit more insight and can make a better decision as to what they should recomend you buy.
Thanks,
Doug

 

[420a16g]

I think posting in the NT-turbo forum would have been ok because the audience is the people that either 1. know the answer or 2. want to hear the answer.

We could probably answer your question a little better with some more information about the car. As it sits right now exactly what are your modifications? How often do you drive the car on the street/not aggressively? And what have been your experiences with it as far as slippage, tire grippage, part failures and the like? If we know the answers to the above then we could probably answer your question better. After answering those please also tell us what modifications you plan on putting in to the car to reach those hp numbers you're shooting for. What kind of time frame from today are you working off of to get there? And once you get there what is the car's destiny as far as how much you will drive it NOT at the race track?

Once you answer ALL of that stuff there then the people reading your pole might have a bit more insight and can make a better decision as to what they should recomend you buy.
Thanks,
Doug

Ok here goes. as of right now modifications are minimal: intake, exhaust, header, electrical upgrades (plugs, wires, coil pack). I didnt put alot into the engine because i knew i was just gonna rebuild it anyways. as far as slippin of any kind right now, there is none. I can launch from about anywhere and when racing, i usually shift between 7k-7100rpms. no slipping at all. Now as for future upgrades, without giving too much away, Howell automotive complete top and bottom end rebuild. size 14 cams, .20 over pistons, long rod set up, +1mm valves, all the goodies. Hahn stage 2 kit with 16g, Hahn portfueler, Hahn stage 2 FMIC, i also have the MSD DIS 2 for some added tuning. along with this goes all the little nick nacks for the engine and appropriate gauges and electronics to tune.

Now for daily driving, i dont drive the car much now, but i do alot in the summer. I dont race it alot, but i do go to the track when i can, and theres always those times when a V8 wnats to mess with you (but im not too big on street racing). All im really concerned about it having a clutch that can handle the abuse and not break or start slipping. The Spec 3+ and CM stage 4 were, from what I've read, the best for this type of hp. On top of that i just needed to know which was the better route to travel, modular or non-modular. I know non-modular saves weight, but im a little concerned about mixing and matching parts, whereas a non-modular is made all together, so you know everything is going to work right, or atleast you hope so.

anyways i hope that helped out a little, Doug since your a wiseman maybe you coudl get one of the moderators to move this thread to the 2GNT forum to help everyone out.

thanx again

 

[Doug99RS]

Ok here goes. as of right now modifications are minimal: intake, exhaust, header, electrical upgrades (plugs, wires, coil pack). I didnt put alot into the engine because i knew i was just gonna rebuild it anyways. as far as slippin of any kind right now, there is none. I can launch from about anywhere and when racing, i usually shift between 7k-7100rpms. no slipping at all. Now as for future upgrades, without giving too much away, Howell automotive complete top and bottom end rebuild. size 14 cams, .20 over pistons, long rod set up, +1mm valves, all the goodies. Hahn stage 2 kit with 16g, Hahn portfueler, Hahn stage 2 FMIC, i also have the MSD DIS 2 for some added tuning. along with this goes all the little nick nacks for the engine and appropriate gauges and electronics to tune.

Now for daily driving, i dont drive the car much now, but i do alot in the summer. I dont race it alot, but i do go to the track when i can, and theres always those times when a V8 wnats to mess with you (but im not too big on street racing). All im really concerned about it having a clutch that can handle the abuse and not break or start slipping. The Spec 3+ and CM stage 4 were, from what I've read, the best for this type of hp. On top of that i just needed to know which was the better route to travel, modular or non-modular. I know non-modular saves weight, but im a little concerned about mixing and matching parts, whereas a non-modular is made all together, so you know everything is going to work right, or atleast you hope so.

anyways i hope that helped out a little, Doug since your a wiseman maybe you coudl get one of the moderators to move this thread to the 2GNT forum to help everyone out.

thanx again

So as it sits right now the car doesn't even have a turbo kit?

At this point I would say you're still in the planning stages and even once the ball is rolling you're going to be in the experimental stage. A stage 2 clutch or equivalent is as far as I would go for anyone just getting in to the range of needing a performance clutch. There's going to be a long period of tuning and learning how to drive the car all over again with the added power. Jumping straight to a stage three or higher would mean you have to learn how to drive the car AND deal with the clutch differences.
Doug

 

[420a16g]

your correct, turbo kit is not installed as of yet. however, I've been in the planning stage for a little over 2 years, i like to research everything before I buy it. driving a puck clutch isnt anything new to me though, all of friends have them and I've driven thier cars numerous times. Also, I do understand what your saying about not going "overkill" on a clutch thats going to be more then I'll need. And it seems like the stage 2 ericbev suggested would be good, considering its flexible for racing and daily driving. But the major concern in my mind is, will a stage 2+ be strong enough to hold 4-500hp? Also, will the addition of an LSD make a difference as far as what clutch to buy? Still lookin for opinions on modular vs. non-modular as well.

thanx doug for getting this thread moved, and for the help.

Also, for anyone thats voting "other" in the poll please post the clutch that you recommend, its hard to know what "other" means without a follow up..

 

[Talon ESI-T]

Look up South Bend Clutch in Indiana, Andy will be more than happy to help you and even build a clutch that specifically meets your needs. Lately i have seen problems with Spec stage 3 clutches on 2gnt. 2 friends close to me have had the stage 3 go bad. Grain ripped part of the sprung hub open and the second oen i am waiting to pull out and see what has failed.


Terry

 

[Doug99RS]

your correct, turbo kit is not installed as of yet. however, I've been in the planning stage for a little over 2 years, i like to research everything before I buy it. driving a puck clutch isnt anything new to me though, all of friends have them and I've driven thier cars numerous times. Also, I do understand what your saying about not going "overkill" on a clutch thats going to be more then I'll need. And it seems like the stage 2 ericbev suggested would be good, considering its flexible for racing and daily driving. But the major concern in my mind is, will a stage 2+ be strong enough to hold 4-500hp? Also, will the addition of an LSD make a difference as far as what clutch to buy? Still lookin for opinions on modular vs. non-modular as well.

thanx doug for getting this thread moved, and for the help.

Also, for anyone thats voting "other" in the poll please post the clutch that you recommend, its hard to know what "other" means without a follow up..

I still don't have any answers on the Modular/non-modular question.

As far as an LSD goes it will increase demand on the clutch because the clutch is now responsible for providing traction to both wheels or at least to the one that isn't spinning. Non-LSD cars spin tires more which means the tires take the brunt of the load and not the clutch until the tire finally grabs.

Also, you should really change your car discription because people will look their before going to your profile. If they see Car: 97 Eclipse N/T (w/turbo)" then they will assume you've already GOT the turbo installed. The screen name is a mute point because it can't be changed and you may one day actually have the turbo on the car. Please help reduce any misunderstanding or misinformation by providing accurate and current information in your profile.
Thanks,
Doug"

 

[420a16g]

Also, you should really change your car discription because people will look their before going to your profile. If they see Car: 97 Eclipse N/T (w/turbo)" then they will assume you've already GOT the turbo installed. The screen name is a mute point because it can't be changed and you may one day actually have the turbo on the car. Please help reduce any misunderstanding or misinformation by providing accurate and current information in your profile.
Thanks,
Doug"

Well the build wasnt suppose to take this long, ofcourse i went from a small build to a full scale build too. As of right now though I'm a month away from build so I guess I could change it, but then I would probably forget to change it back. Sorry for the confussion it caused though, if any.

As far as the LSD goes, is that going to make a huge difference in determining which kind or stage clutch to buy?

 

[420a16g]

Look up South Bend Clutch in Indiana, Andy will be more than happy to help you and even build a clutch that specifically meets your needs. Lately i have seen problems with Spec stage 3 clutches on 2gnt. 2 friends close to me have had the stage 3 go bad. Grain ripped part of the sprung hub open and the second oen i am waiting to pull out and see what has failed.
Terry

Thanx for the suggestion Terrry, I looked over the site and it looks like the answer I've been waiting for. I tried to call them but they were already closed, or maybe its because its President's Day, but I'm gonna give them a call tomm and talk to Andy, see what they can do for me. Thanx again.

 

[DSMcrazy3]

Lately i have seen problems with Spec stage 3 clutches on 2gnt.

I agree and have seen the complaints also. I was planning on purchasing a SPEC stage 3 pretty soon, luckily a friend of mine showed me the threads on 2gnt with the info about the stage 3.

It could however be a flaw in the design of just the stage 3. He was talking about getting a SPEC stage 3+..I haven't seen any complaints about any SPEC clutch for our trannys, except the stage 3. I'll probably end up going with a stage 2.

I agree with Doug, in saying since you're in the planning stages, just focus on a stage 2 maybe. Once you actually complete the build and realize that you will in fact be putting down those amounts of power, buy the higher rated clutch.(don't actually purchase one until the one you have now takes a dump, or you realize you will need one to support more power)
Hahn made it to mid 13's on the stock clutch in their 98 RS-t, I'm not sure how much quicker they made it before they had to replace it..

I also agree with Doug about the profile thing. It takes alot of work to be able to turbo a 420a. It's not really fair to those who have put in the blood sweat and tears to achieve that goal. Trust me, when you turbo it, you won't forget to change it.

 

[BigRand]

Okay people, I've got the spec stage 3+ and so far no complaints. The street disc in it makes it feel like a stock clutch right up until it grabs then you understand why its a stage 3 clutch that is supposed to handle over 400hp. I was pushing close to 200whp during this, and plan on pushing 250whp later this month, and eventually 300whp by summertime.

If I do have any problems with it, be sure I will be the first to diagnose why and what was done about it. But I really hope that isn't for a long time.

I cannot vouch for the Stage 2 or Stage 3 spec clutches. I have only heard good things about the Stage 3+ kits, but then again they are still realtively new.

 

[Talon ESI-T]

Modular VS non-modular.....Stay modular for a few reasons. When you replace the clutch the flywheel comes with it.....no having to resurface the flywheel everytime. Second, it makes the trans so much easier to change out, so very very easy.

LSD? wont make much of a difference. The LSD will determine how you drive your car, not how much power the clutch is going to take. As far as what clutch to buy? Buy it when you are ready for it and buy more than you need. You will expand and grow so dont buy a clutch your going to need to replace before you wear it out.

I am a firm believer in upgrading things right before you need them to save time and money. 5 PSI alone will toast an older stock clutch, trust me i know. If you turbo your car and the clutch goes out then you are dealing with having oy pull the trans at the least convenient time. I prefer to work on my car at my schedule.

Terry

 

[420a16g]

I also agree with Doug about the profile thing. It takes alot of work to be able to turbo a 420a. It's not really fair to those who have put in the blood sweat and tears to achieve that goal. Trust me, when you turbo it, you won't forget to change it.

ok profile is changed, i never thought about it like that.

Modular VS non-modular.....Stay modular for a few reasons. When you replace the clutch the flywheel comes with it.....no having to resurface the flywheel everytime. Second, it makes the trans so much easier to change out, so very very easy.

im gonna stick with a modular clutch then, thanx for the advice.

I am a firm believer in upgrading things right before you need them to save time and money. 5 PSI alone will toast an older stock clutch, trust me i know. If you turbo your car and the clutch goes out then you are dealing with having oy pull the trans at the least convenient time. I prefer to work on my car at my schedule.

I feel the same way, which is why im buying all my parts now so i dont have to worry about more down time later.

As of right now my options are, from what I've read and looked up, either a Spec Stage 3+ or a South Bend clutch. If someone want to suggest another brand then please do, I'm looking for all possible options.

 

[XMasta19]

darn...I've been away from my computer all weekend


anywho...just don't think you're gonna build the motor, slap that turbo kit with some other mods, and bam you're pushing 400hp. do the research, very few in our 2gnt world have reached this goal, and their mod lists were quite extensive. I think you'll be just fine with the SPEC Stage 2+, or possibly talking to Andy about the South Bend OFE. As far as the SPEC Stage 3 goes...the problems usually didn't occur until around the 10k miles area. For those who haven't seen the threads on 2gnt, I've been talking with David Norton at SPEC about the flaws in the design. He has assured us all that the issues have been resolved, and those purchasing the Stage 3 with older build will have them replaced. I'm currently in the hunt for a clutch as well, so trust me I've been doing my research.


so Terry...where's my transmission at hehe. my car still doesn't move , and makes the nastiest noise in the world...I think baby jesus cried last time I started the car . I too will be sticking with modular for ease of tranny work. Tax returns due any day, tranny needs to be dropped finally, and I need to get my car running again Oh yeah...how's that ms build going for selmer, I think I will be next in line for that....but we'll continue in pm's

fyi....act does not make a clutch for us

 

[420a16g]

anywho...just don't think you're gonna build the motor, slap that turbo kit with some other mods, and bam you're pushing 400hp. do the research, very few in our 2gnt world have reached this goal, and their mod lists were quite extensive.:

Well I'll have about 8k in the engine alone (i.e. parts, head work, block work, etc..) pretty extensive if you ask me, and I too have done my research, 2 years worth, I'm not new to this just needed to get some opinions on clutches. And if i dont hit the 400hp mark, then wasnt for not trying, but thats where im estimating the car after building and tuning.

 

[XMasta19]

 

[420a16g]

Just wanted to let everyone know that I decided on and purchased my clutch today. I talked to Andy at South Bend Clutch and told him what all mods I am doing to the car and what kind of numbers I'm aiming for. He advised me of what clutch he thought was best and it fits every need that I have. I decided to go with the SS-OFE clutch with the cryofreezing, which helps the clutch wear evenly and eliminates weak spots, also provides a much shorter break in period (100-200 miles ). With the clutch, shipping, and the cryofreezing the cost was $565 to my door, not too bad imo.

anyways just letting everyone know what i decided on, thanx to everyone for their help and a big thanx to Terry for telling me about SBC.