Ok, lets discuss running only 1 - 3* timing during spool

[turboglenn]

Okay, lately i've been looking at peoples maps on e85 and pump gas/meth setups just because tuning is one of my biggest passions and i like to see what others are doing compared to what i come up with on my own and this puzzles the shit outta me..

I see some guys that have only 1 to 3* of timing during the spool and evolution.net they call it peak spool (refferencing the time during the rev through a gear)

So af, understanding that it would be to speed up spool instead of antilag or other means i decided myslef to try it out for a day and i'm only left 5 times as puzzled since and put my map back without ever thinking of doing it again..

so here's why I don't like it and you guys that do can maybe tell me why you do or what you think it offers over just keeping a regular smooth timing curve

My current setup in 3rd bogging from 2500 - 3k rpm's will make mid 20's for psi by 4500 or so but pulls hard even when there's little to no boost being made.

when i ran a map that had this "low timing" setup and even when i copied a guys curve cell by cell i was left severely dissapointed... although i ended up making 15 - 20 psi before 4k RPM (say 15 by 3400) the loss in power was so great that it slowed the car down so bad that i can't imagine anyone going "fast" this way ( i was making less power at 15psi than i was at 3 psi with good timing)

normally only making 1-3psi in this range when i first hit the gas i rev right through in to the 4 - 5k range and ma making boost and boggy'ing down the road.. I don't have my logs in front of me but i can easily say that on my normal timing (no dip in the spool area) i can move through the 3k range and into the 4500 area fast... when i ran the retarded spool up curve my car fell flat on it's face while making 15psi the car was more sluggish than if i blew an IC pipe and went N/A on my regular curve I mean it's retardedly slow to do this, i mean yea there's boost where i can't make boost otherwise but the power is so crappy from only a degree or 2 of timing that there's no way this can be worth it to do in any situation , even at the track and especially on the street!!

I will pull some logs that open in excell and show you the time it takes to get from 3k to 4500 with the low timing and the same pull on my regular timing (which all my figures will be shown, timing, AFR etc...) and you tell me how this can be anything but hurtfull to your performance, the only thing i can see is mentally fooling some one just because they make more boost at a lower RPM

If any of you that are running this read the post and care to respond please let me know and just as i tried your maps, try mine and give me your opinions as well iff you dare, but i have to shut myself up because this was the biggest waste of tuning time i've ever spent ( and i mean no offense to any of you doing this , i know i'm sounding harsh but it's because i'm baffled as to why people do it)

I guess simply put.. if i can make full boost by 4500 normally, and it takes 3 seconds to get from 3k to 4500 on my normal map... and then on the retarded map i can make the same boost by say 3700 RPM but it takes me 7 seconds to get to 4500 from 3k what's the advantage? I tried utilizing this method in 3 scenarios.... regular DD work, powering off from a low RPM in a single gear (even 1st and 2nd sucked at this range) and then i tried it in downshift scenarios and in all 3 i suffered a loss from the bad curve, enough that it's bugged me all day to make me put this up here . But i just cannot find any advantage to rnning my curve like this

 

[rstchris]

I would have to agree with you 100%. So what if it spools quicker in a sence of rpm when it physically takes longer on the clock. Not only that but kill midrange power? I prefer higher timing, it makes for better response and good drivabillity. Most of us over the age of 18 don't boost stoplight to stoplight so hitting peak boost every gear is not the goal. If the a/c is on while at 1* of timing you might start rolling backward.

 

[turboglenn]

If the a/c is on while at 1* of timing you might start rolling backward.

finally got my daily laugh..thank you!

True though, it seems tht bad honestly... I found the maps on evolution.net, lemme see if i can host them on here to illistrate the timing (arghh can't find em)

anywayeven though the timing is only low for 3 of the 500 RPM cells on the one with the "best" higher timing (the one i copied cell by cell) it still suckedand i ran 3k = 2* 3500 = 3* and 4k = 4* the timing drop occured at 1psi and held untillthe range at which my turbo just picks up and spools hard on it's own (about 20psi or so)

 

[JayRolla]

Ive tried to run low timing like the evo guys and the car would always bog and feel sluggish. Plus the gains in spool are minimal and not noticeable in a real life situation. Yea you may see it on your logger and be happy but do you really notice a difference when driving. I like around 15* during spool up and creep it up too 22* by peak tq.

 

[Ceddy]

The Evos have a more efficient motor which cause them to not be able to handle as much timing. The DSMs on the other hand love timing.

Most of the guys running low timing during spool up and peak torque are not doing it for faster spool up, but because that is the most timing they can run without knocking.

 

[logic]

What Ceddy said. If I run more than a few degrees of timing during spool on my Evo, I register knock. I've never had that problem on a DSM.

 

[turboglenn]

! they seriously can only run that much timing to avoid knock? HOw does that car feel during this point in the timing range? And besides the new 4b11 aren't the other older ones just 4g's? and if they are 4g's what's the difference making them unable to run the regular timings

 

[joyfil2001]

I'm running the EVO maps on my DSM. I do it because I can't keep the knock down otherwise. Running an HX35 at anywhere between 22-28psi. If I use stock maps, no matter how I tweak it, I get knock as low as 20psi!

 

[turboglenn]

I'm running the EVO maps on my DSM. I do it because I can't keep the knock down otherwise. Running an HX35 at anywhere between 22-28psi. If I use stock maps, no matter how I tweak it, I get knock as low as 20psi!

HOw does the car feel in that area? Would you mind sending me your timing map and let me know what i can open it with? I'm just curious and think part of the issue might be in what's reffered to as "attack rate" and if you're willing I'd be down to examine and modify your map if you'd be willing to try it out. I mean what could it hurt?

also what is your setup as far as compression ratio, cams etc..??? I didn't look in your profile but i guess i could

 

[ziggo0]

I can give a little insight on how it feels I guess. I've been working on a buddies Evo 8 lately. His tob/pressure plate took a dump and I had to pull the tranny and do a clutch job for him. It's running a stock 2.0, nice tubular manifold, AMS 37r, AMS intake manifold, ets fmic, bigger injectors blah blah...the list goes on. It was dyno tuned by AMS at 490whp, at 27psi, 93oct. I didn't get a chance to hookup evoscan and get some logs but I can tell ya this turbo doesn't hit full spool until about 5 ~ 5.5k rpm, during this time the car feels piss poor slow then it hits you and throws you into the rear seats.

 

[joyfil2001]

HOw does the car feel in that area? Would you mind sending me your timing map and let me know what i can open it with? I'm just curious and think part of the issue might be in what's reffered to as "attack rate" and if you're willing I'd be down to examine and modify your map if you'd be willing to try it out. I mean what could it hurt?

also what is your setup as far as compression ratio, cams etc..??? I didn't look in your profile but i guess i could

I would be more than willing to do that. I tuned it myself, and I am new to tuning so any help is welcomed. I use dsmlink v3, so you would need to download the software to open it. Keep in mind the car is AUTO. Mods are HX35, 850cc inj, upgraded fuel lines, FP race manifold, no cams yet, 38mm Tial, VRS FMIC, and all other supporting mods I don't feel like listing. It hits full spool between 4-4500 rpm. Feels kind of sluggish until boost kicks in and slaps you in the face! Give me a few minutes and I will upload my current maps.

Oh yea, and it is the stock 7 bolt with 150 compression across the board, 145,000 miles. All I did was headgasket and studs.

 

[jlr2196]

Funny to read this topic, Glenn..I just finished experimenting with this theory (literally over the past two weeks) as well and just like you, I experienced the same piss-poor results. I certainly like the way the car feels with more timing and 500rpm later spool-up, not that I have much lag with a 16G but I was amazed at how lazy the engine was after trying the low timing tune. Nice to see somebody post up some real world data on this issue as I was starting to think it was just me.

 

[blakktalon]

This is so weird i was just trying a bit of "pulling timing before spoolup" about two hours ago hahah, needless to say i didnt have good results either. I am running an hx35/bep housing with 850s/jackal and supporting mods on a basically stock motor, i wasnt getting the "instant spool" i hear so much about so i was looking into other options .

 

[turboglenn]

I would be more than willing to do that. I tuned it myself, and I am new to tuning so any help is welcomed. I use dsmlink v3, so you would need to download the software to open it. Keep in mind the car is AUTO. Mods are HX35, 850cc inj, upgraded fuel lines, FP race manifold, no cams yet, 38mm Tial, VRS FMIC, and all other supporting mods I don't feel like listing. It hits full spool between 4-4500 rpm. Feels kind of sluggish until boost kicks in and slaps you in the face! Give me a few minutes and I will upload my current maps.

Oh yea, and it is the stock 7 bolt with 150 compression across the board, 145,000 miles. All I did was headgasket and studs.

well, shoot me your maps bud and i'll look at em and adjust

Glenn

 

[joyfil2001]

well, shoot me your maps bud and i'll look at em and adjust

Glenn

Will do. My laptop is in my car at home right now. I drove my wife's car to work today or else I would send them now. I will try to remember tonight.

 

[donniekak]

The only place i've found in my map where pulling timing actually make the car faster, is to pull tons of timing when my launch control is activated.

 

[pboglio]

I also tried pulling timing back during spool up, right around 2500-3500 rpms. Same problem, car may spool faster but engine doesn't rev as quickly. I just jack the timing up to +5* in this range and timed how fast my rpms rise in this range. What the boost gauge reads doesn't matter to me as long as the rpms rise fast. This mod is beloved by EVO owners, possibly might work with active cam timing, but not on a DSM.

 

[black_gst]

I saw this thread and tried the same thing on my car and noticed how much faster the car gets up and goes and revs climb with around +5* of timing sub 4k

 

[dsm-onster]

Most of the evo guys are running twinscroll housings. The stock evo turbo is good for an easy 450whp, just bolton some junk and go. . . Fully dividing the pulses so they don't leak into the other cylinders during the exhaust blowdown does more than contribute to spool; having the cylinder cooler and free of inert exhaust gases increases VE in the same moment. Therefore, with more VE comes MUCH more cylinder pressure and faster burn rate. Timing is all about timing and not about advance. It's not how much you can get, but about timing it right for the burn rate. It's not MT (mean timing), its MBT (mean best timing)...

I typically see evo motors develop torque earlier than their dsm counterparts. Yet they only have .3CR more than the 2g motor. The twinscroll setup, what do they say? They say, 'It's hard to explain. The boost is linear, but it feels stronger while spooling and through the rev range.' That's because there's more "meat" there. More cylinder pressure, because the VE is higher, earlier.

That's just my take on it all.

They also have different manifolds and other various aspects that alter how more effectively the cylinder fills. Cylinder fill = VE = cylinder pressure = burn rate.

 

[joyfil2001]

well, shoot me your maps bud and i'll look at em and adjust

Glenn

Hey Glenn my laptop crashed. I have a spar one at home but I have to install ecmlink and log everything again. I will get you the maps as soon as I can.

 

[pboglio]

My take on it is what ultimately makes power? It is the engine coupled to the transmission. Whether the turbo is lighting up faster due to higher exhaust manifold drive pressure from retarded ignition timing, it doesn't offset the fact the actual power making device has lost mechanical and thermal efficiency, and that rate of loss is much higher than what is gained by spinning the turbo up faster.

I see it possibly working with adjustability of the MIVEC cam timing tables but on a DSM I haven't seen it work at all. Same thing goes for lean A/F's to help spool the turbo, never worked for me either but is all the rage in the EVO camp.

 

[joyfil2001]

Hey Glenn,

Finally got the other laptop in the car and did some logging. The first one is an idle log. Second is a 2nd gear pull. Check them out.

 

[pneumo]

The stock 1G timing map already has a few degrees pulled out during spoolup, so pulling more just hurts it more.

Another problem is that it's easy to hit the highest load cells before reaching full spool, so you're running on the richest part of the fuel map which hurts spool. The EVO guys use the term 'lean spool' but it's not too lean. I found that using around 11.5 to 12.5 AF ratio works nice during spoolup, tapering richer as boost goes up. To do this I needed to remove 2 or 3 degrees of timing to eliminate knock but it works. In other words, I'm still spooling with timing maxed to the knock threshold, it's just leaner.

 

[turboglenn]

Hey Glenn,

Finally got the other laptop in the car and did some logging. The first one is an idle log. Second is a 2nd gear pull. Check them out.

Hey man, i've downloaded all your logs and opened in V3 ECMlink but it's showing all your timing to be just dead zeroed running a 1g curve... is there something i'm not getting? I also noticved there's no true spreadsheet style tables in this version ( IIRC the older ones had true VE and i THINK timing tables)

let me know if there's something i'm missing, but for the litttle RPM's those logs show the timing looksgreat if you're not getting any knock with it and the knock on the logs isn't too bad

get back to me cause i'd like to help ya if i can but everything looks normal ( but i've never played on V3 yet iether)

Glenn

 

[firebirdvert305]

Hey man, i've downloaded all your logs and opened in V3 ECMlink but it's showing all your timing to be just dead zeroed running a 1g curve... is there something i'm not getting? I also noticved there's no true spreadsheet style tables in this version ( IIRC the older ones had true VE and i THINK timing tables)

let me know if there's something i'm missing, but for the litttle RPM's those logs show the timing looksgreat if you're not getting any knock with it and the knock on the logs isn't too bad

get back to me cause i'd like to help ya if i can but everything looks normal ( but i've never played on V3 yet iether)

Glenn

Right click on the log and goto the ECU_direct access tab, it will show you his current timing map at different load areas. The ECU will use the direct access timing maps entered in the load cells.. then if you want to adjust it higher or lower, you can use the ECU_config timing maps without having to turn off/on the car too flash the ECU.

For guys not too familar with ECMLINK try this with the log posted above.
Open up the datalog then goto the area right before he goes WOT. You will see a white line (top to bottom) indicating where the current ECMLINK is taking data from. Right click on the log and goto ECU_direct access (from log). Once you have that up goto Tmngmaxoct (it should be bold meaning it was adjusted from stock). This is the timing maps the ECU will currently try to aim for, accounting for if there is no knock. Once you have that map up, in the upper right hand screen you will see a "detach table" tab, Click it. This will bring up another screen with just the timing map in its own seperate page. On the top left now you will see a tab saying "always on top"...Check mark that tab. Now goto the lower right hand portion of that screen and crop the timing map enough so its not taking up the whole screen. Just show enough of the timing map without cutting off any of its values. Once you did that, at the top you will see another tab showing "OPACITY". Bring the opacity down to the lowest setting, this will make the timing map look real dim...if this worked PERFECT, leave it alone. The best part has yet to come. On the Direct Access table, now click track datalog...its right next too the "detach table" tab that you currently pressed before. Now heres the best part...the timing map should "follow you" now because you selected it too "always stay on top"....On the ECMlink program goto the ECMlink tab at the top where you originally opened the datalog from. Click on the datalog once and use the left-right cursors and scroll through the map. You can see where the ECU is pulling its timing numbers from the direct access timing maps. This also works for A/F ratios as well at WOT if logging a wideband, just do the samething mentioned above but use the tab "openloopmaxoct". Have fun with it guys.