Oil pump modifications.

[pneumo]

Briggs and Stratton? Dang, I was going to say a two stroke motorcycle engine. They have ball bearing mains with gas/oil vapor to lube it.

Instead of a cookie, could I get a Ring-Ding?

 

[Maglin]

LoL... Forgot about 2 cycle engines... A lot of small 2 strokes don't have oil pumps either... The oil is just for the drivetrain... Been so long since I tore one of those apart I forgot they existed... LoL... Kudo's... I'll split my cookie with you... It's no Ring-Ding but hey it's something...

 

[Defiant]

Just too see if anyone is paying attention to anything other than cars, there are motors that don't even have oil pumps, first person to get it right gets a cookie.

Model T Fords had neither oil nor water pumps. And I think the A had no oil pump, either. They use "dippers", not slingers.

 

[MNGSX]

Increasing the passage volume will just increase the time it takes to prime the system and have no effect on the pressure.

I recomend losing the b-shafts... keeping squirters on 1g's, using 2g blocks to anchor things like those square floating swimming docks.

I just smoothed and polished the passages on the block side since they were rough and radiused the galley entrances.

 

[NDgsx]

Man if you guys keep this stuff up I'm going to have to rob a bakery :laugh:

 

[Red 2g GSX]

1. Smooth out the casting flash in the 2 front oil passages in the block (radius the main galley entry while you're at it).
2. Pull the squirters and block them.
3. Install balance shaft removal kit.
4. When installing pump gasket, cut the part that extends thru the oil passages. I believe I Hylomar'd the gasket to the pump, then used an Xacto knife to trim away any gasket that would reside in the passages).

I ended up with about "ONE MILLION" psi!!!

Actually, when it's warmed up, I'm probably around 20+ psi at idle. The cylinder head see's about 1/2 the block psi at idle. At anything above 2500rpm it's probably around 90 ~ 100 psi. And I shift around 8k rpm at the track without problems. No leaks, no blown filters. Using the Toga high volume pump, pumping thru an external cooler and large filter with ~8ft -8AN hose. So YMMV.

If your next question is "what thread size is the oil squirter?" I don't remember... ended up finding heat treated bolts and cutting their length to fit, using a lockwasher and liberal application of JB Weld on the threads before running them in.

Hope this helps.

The oil squiters help cool the piston alot esp. when your racing. The oil squiters have a check valve in them so they only open above a certin Oil Pressure that way when your at idle and at like 10 psi of oil pressure your not pumping oil and loosing psi. They arnt bad and i dont think its a good idea to take them out. But deff. take them out anc clean them good that way the check vavle wont sick open. IMO

VIc

 

[Hal]

That’s why anything smaller than -10AN on our cars IS restrictive.
Mitch.

Not to rain on your parade but have you measured the banjo bolt opening on a 1g external oil cooler.

They are a hell of a lot smaller than -8, never mind -10.

You need a -10/-12 for the turbo oil RETURN because the oil is aerated, but for an oil cooler, -6 is more than sufficient.

Hal

 

[pneumo]

Not to rain on your parade but have you measured the banjo bolt opening on a 1g external oil cooler.

They are a hell of a lot smaller than -8, never mind -10.

You need a -10/-12 for the turbo oil RETURN because the oil is aerated, but for an oil cooler, -6 is more than sufficient.

Hal

Funny you should mention that. When I relocated the oil cooler on my car I ported and drilled out the banjo bolts in hopes of reducing restriction. I opted for oil cooler lines that are less restrictive because of the way the oil cooler thermostat works. After examining the thermostat I came to the conclusion that if the oil cooler and lines are too restrictive, then less oil goes to the cooler and more oil gets bypassed around the cooler and goes straight to the engine.

RRE has a nice diagram posted from the tech manual here; www.RoadRaceEngineering.com/eclipsetech/turbooilsupplysource.jpg

If you look at the diagram you'll see the thermostat on the left side. It's called the 'oil cooler bypass valve'. When the oil gets hot the thermostat expands, pushing the valve closed. The valve looks like an inverted T in the picture. The problem is that the valve seat (the bottom of the T) is not rigidly mounted to the rod (vertical part of the T). The seat holds the bypass port closed by spring pressure, and that spring isn't very strong. It's only slightly stronger than the spring in a PaperMate pen. If there is a greater pressure differential across the thermostat valve it can easily push the valve seat open and let some oil bypass the cooler. Oil will take the path of least resistance. My main concern is whether there is a large enough pressure differential across the bypass valve to cause it to open. Maybe the flow rate is low enough to keep the valve from being pushed open?

I don't know, so I ported the banjo bolts just to be on the safe side. I figured if the oil gets too cold the bypass valve will do it's job and open up the passage that bypasses the oil cooler.

 

[Hal]

That's right, it's designed to bypass.

For mine, I just used -6 line and a TCI tube/fin cooler core.

 

[pneumo]

Many thanks to the moderators who cleaned up the unrelated bs that was in this thread.

Still, I did not write my analysis of the oil bypass valve to support or put down any person. I posted it so that others could learn and use the info to make more informed choices when planning future mods to their oil system.

If you take the time to read what mods I and Hal have done to our oil coolers and lines you would see that Hal has the less restrictive setup. I have a cheap-ass hacked setup that works only slightly better than stock. I'm smart enough to know it, just not wealthy enough to do anything about it yet.

Here's some speculation about the bypass valve. I'm guessing the Mitsu engineers made it easy for the bypass valve to open so that if the oil cooler ever got clogged from a severe lack of oil changes, or if the cooler lines got pinched, the bypass valve would still let oil get into the engine so it could run. I'm glad they designed it that way, otherwise my '90 might be in the junkyard by now since it has a slightly crushed oil cooler line.

 

[blue1]

Hi guys safe to put in an opinion!!
Red 2G gsx has the right idea the oil squirters do keep the piston cool 99% of the time but when your racing its your air/fuel that will do it! you lean out at big power doesn't matter how much oil you have under the crown of the piston it will melt from the top down. As for making sure the squirters are clean and not sticking on a 2G he is the MAN!! 2G's feed directly from the bearing supply and the 1G's from the main oil gallery so if a 1G sticks the oil pump and bypass will take up the Loss! if a 2G sticks it just bleeds of the oil the mains require to survive especially at idle. (magnus crankwalk theory) i hope it is ok on here to listen to him!
Pnuemo and Hal i did exactly the same as you guys i have -10 line in and out of my cooler with moded fittings WHAT can it HURT it will hold more oil!!! is that a bad thing? When Mitsubishi design and build things they work on two theorys reliability and cost! so if a -6 line will keep a daily driver car happy that's what goes on! -6 lines are cheaper than -10 or -8. Then go and look at what they do with their factory race cars there are no -6 lines?? WHY? who give a shit when there is only a couple of cars they race that make their daily drivers top sellers.

Mod Edit: non-tech stuff removed.

 

[Suparata]

As pneumo stated, by restricting the ports to and from the cooler, oil ends up being forced to find a “better”, easier way to keep on going and the spring pressure on the thermostat valve is easy to overcome. You would argue that it is easier for the oil to go through a hole than to overcome the pressure of a spring. I would say not if the hole is smaller than it should be like the factory made it. And certainly not when the valve gets opened and the pressure on the other side of the thermostat where the oil returns from the cooler further restricts the flow through the cooler.

That by-pass valve’s main job is to do it’s “thermostatic duties” before anything else and the by-pass based on pressure should be kept to a minimum. In fact on correctly configured oil system that is well maintained it should never operate in the “pressure mode”.

This is what I think and I didn’t have to insult nobody saying this. It is common sense to me but what do I know?

Mitch.

Mod Edit: non-tech stuff removed.

 

[GRNDSM]

I would like to remind you guys this is EXTREME TECH FORUM, crap like this does NOT belong here (I am not even sure that it belongs in a hangout, but I am not moderating that forum…).

I have cleaned up everything that I thought was not technical. Lets not ruin this otherwise good thread!

 

[NDgsx]

I'm guessing the Mitsu engineers made it easy for the bypass valve to open so that if the oil cooler ever got clogged from a severe lack of oil changes, or if the cooler lines got pinched, the bypass valve would still let oil get into the engine so it could run.

Actually that's how all the oil thermostats I have ever seen are constructed. Stock units, sandwich adaptors, remote units, etc...
The one downside to these thermostats is that if your oil cooler itself is not restrictive enough the oil will not make that 90 degree turn and you will have a hard time getting the oil up to temp when cruising. I have a 11x11x1.5 cooler and had to put a shutoff valve in the feed line to restrict flow when cruising on the freeway.

 

[tmizer]

Food for thought because I hate baseless conjecture:

First, Crankbender said something technically sound that, unfortunately, went over most people's heads:

Oil is an incompressible fluid. I can take a sealed pipe of oil that is 200 feet long and if I suddenly expose one end to pressure the pressure will reach the other end of the pipe at approximately the speed of sound. In other words using a larger line that is always filled with oil (like a cooler etc) will in no way reduce the time it takes the oil to build pressure or, if properly designed for flow, the pressure seen at the other end of th eline. In fact going to larger lines and coolers can increase the pressure at the engine as the oil is slowed down and the viscous losses are decreased.

It's too bad more people didn't comment on this. Specifically, decreasing the minor and major head losses will increase the pressure seen to the bearings. The math is found in your average fluid dynamics text for incompressible viscous pipe (or internal) flow.

Second, kudo's to Hal:

You need a -10/-12 for the turbo oil RETURN because the oil is aerated, but for an oil cooler, -6 is more than sufficient.

Devils in the details: sure a -8AN is close to 3/8", but how big, or more correctly, how do ALL the fitting losses compare to the frictional losses of the hose? Is it correct to just get big hose and forget about all the other factors? No, and indeed, Hal is correct, here's why:

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Given the assumptions, hose ID (the hose and any straight paths the oil takes including those in the block leading from the pump into the cover and then the cover into the block) is about 50% of the problem, the other half are the items no one talks about. And if you look at the absolute pressure numbers, having approx 67 psi available in the main oil galley after going thru "small" -8AN hose is more than adequate. Moreover, I submit if you spend more time in analysis, getting more detailed, (somewhere here at work I'm told we have loss data on AN-type banjo fittings) you will find the orifice pressure loss number to get higher, so that whether it is -8 or -6, either hose will be fine.
-Tom

 

[na90dsm]

im glad thsi thread got cleaned up. very very informative. nwo if i can understand the above post ill be ok

 

[tmizer]

....well... was a little bored at work, heh.

oh, btw, I meant -8AN for all calculations, and when I stated "absolute pressure" I obviously meant gauge pressure instead. And 12ft of hose was a bit much, but I figured I hadn't even put in loss considerations for an oil cooler and filter, so I used 12 ft instead of say 6 to 8ft of hose.

 

[Suparata]

Food for thought until we get the loss data on AN fittings.

Even though the topic of oil pressure and oil flow has been well covered, the controversy is still there due to the difficulty of making people understanding that “pressure readings” are simply measuring a form of resistance.
Guys have been TOO successful in convincing people that oil pressure is the best standard by which to measure the health of an engine’s lube and bearing systems. Since measuring pressure is easier than measuring a system’s flow rate, pressure became the standard. Perhaps we would have been better served to have simply said ”X gpm of flow rate for every 1000rpm” but that kind of terms are only common in a racing teams vocabulary.
The design criterion for today’s performance engine builder is a balancing act between several competing characteristics: power to weight ratio, power to CID ratio, cost and relative durability. Relative durability, “the engine’s ability to maintain a proven output over an expected lifespan”, is often the real issue. With a design goal of “durability under severe operating conditions”, the performance engine builder is answering market demands, which are completely different from the OEM.
Going back to the term “Relative Durability” oil pressure is valuable when used as reference number to indicate wear. By qualifying an oil pressure standard for a new engine running at BOTH a defined RPM ond oil temperature, a benchmark can be established and used later on to easily evaluate wear. Unfortunately if we measure any other “resistance” between the oil pump and the bearings, our readings might not tell us anything.
Reduced oil temperatures and in most cases increased flow rates are our friends when it comes to building a strong and long lasting engine. Too restrictive systems will only reduce the oil flow available while doing a “great” job increasing the oil temperatures. The “higher” pressure achieved this way will only be “released” back into the crankcase by the pressure relief valve.
Bottom line, we can argue here for as long as we want about what we think is “sufficient” for our engines but we will have to actually try things out to see what the BEST setup will be. I am crazy enough to have spent over $1000 on various setups before making my decision. Why did I do that? Maybe because I know how hard one has to work to build a strong engine and how easy it is to wear that engine down. But again what do I know?

 

[na90dsm]

yea ive been reading up on peoples setups and it seems more people keep the oil system somewhat stock with only little things done like that mod for the oil filter housing and runnign the correct size an fittings leik suparata said. all these people ive been reading up on have been making 400+hp most of which is to the wheels.

the one thing ive always followed is follow what works then go from there. id rather use a setup that has been proven to make power and last then to use a new setup that may blow up in a week.

if it aint broke dont fix it

 

[pneumo]

The oil passages on a 4G63 are roughly .470” which is around 12mm.
A -10AN hose end fitting has an ID of .480” and a -10AN-1/2” adaptor used when a proper oil filter relocation kit is installed is .485” therefore -10AN IS the right size to use.

-8AN hose end fittings and -8AN-1/2” adaptors have an ID of .390” which is less than 10mm which is the first obvious restriction when -8AN is used in the system.
Now hold on to your pants because here comes the “best” part on a -8AN setup: the 16x1.5mm-10AN adapter goes down to an ID of roughly .320” which is a little over 8mm!!!!!!!! Now how is that for a nice restriction?

What I’m trying to say here is that, even though hoses look thick and “plenty big”, the overall flow “capability” of a particular setup will be dictated by the ID of the connecting fittings because a hose is as “big on the inside as the smallest part of it is”.

Mitch.

Just for reference the ID of the stock oil cooler banjo bolts is 8mm (0.315").

 

[bjones18]

Unless I am misunderstanding you then you are wrong. The oil-cooler should go in line with the engine and if well designed will not add a significant restriction. If you use too small of line however it will. The oil to the turbo should be controlled and the flow that it needs is based on design. In any case however you will never need a ton of oil and that little extra that is going there should not effect anything. If you are using a mitsu or any other water cooled/ball bearing turbo you should not run it straight off the oil filter. The turbo is not designed for the pressure and you can blow the seals out...mitsu had them on the head for a reason.

Oil is an incompressible fluid. I can take a sealed pipe of oil that is 200 feet long and if I suddenly expose one end to pressure the pressure will reach the other end of the pipe at approximately the speed of sound. In other words using a larger line that is always filled with oil (like a cooler etc) will in no way reduce the time it takes the oil to build pressure or, if properly designed for flow, the pressure seen at the other end of th eline. In fact going to larger lines and coolers can increase the pressure at the engine as the oil is slowed down and the viscous losses are decreased.

I think it is misunderstood that you always want more oil. This simply isn't true. Parts of the engine or turbo are designed for a specific pressure and flow. Exceeding either of these can caus ethe parts to run incorrectly and wear. Keep your pressure where it should be and don't blindly try to just get more oil.

Agree with sealed pipe example. However when fluid is flowing there is a pressure drop associated with each component in the fluid delivery system, elboys, orifices, coolers, friction from length/diameter, etc. A well designed system keeps fluid moving at a certain rate and doesn't provide needless restrictions.