EGuenther
15+ Year Contributor
- 86
- 0
- Feb 9, 2008
-
Red Deer,
AB, Canada
Im about 80% sure its the rings but i just need some encouragement before i re-ring my 700km old motor.
So here goes, Last fall i parked the car for winter and decided it was time to do a rebuild. The motor had almost 200,000km and compression was at 150 except for number 1, which was at 130. I decided i was going to do the stroker thing and went about gathering parts.
From top to bottom the new parts are as follows(if a part isnt listed, it's stock), -Oem valve stems seals, Ferrea valve guides, Ferrea +1mm SS valves, ARP head studs, Cometic HG, 0.020 over Wiseco stroker pistons, Eagle ESP rods, ACL Race rod and main bearings. I bought a used g4cs crank and had it polished, so all my bearings are standard size, but on the loose side. I'm using Rotella 15 40w for oil. Existing parts are listed in my profile but i'll list them any way, -Apexi 3" DP and Cat-Back, Pacesetter header, 3" upper and lower i/c piping, a 24"x12"x4" front mount, wally 255, Aeromotive AFPR, GReddy timing belt, MAF translator, DSMlink, AEM wide band, autometer boost and egt gauges.
All of these parts were on the car the first trip out except the valve guides and OEM stem seals. I rebuilt every thing myself, i set the 1st piston ring to 0.018 gap, the second to 0.022 and the oil rings were within minimum and maximum gap allowed. I used all 3 oil rings with 4th oil ring for support. All marks on all the rings were faced up, the fourth oil ring dimple faced down and above the wrist pin as per wiseco instructions. The head studs were torqued down to 20, 50, then 85. and re-torqued after 250km.
The first 300ish km were great, i left the wastegate acuator arm off so no boost for the first day/100km. The car pulled good and strong with expected blue smoke from exhaust. I put boost to it the next day at stock level, put another 200 km on it. When i got home it was dark so i didnt notice the smoke until the next day of driving. After start up, it would take about 15 seconds or so then blue out the exhaust. It started to foul plugs at idle and when i pulled the plugs out there was oil on all the pistons. Drivng around town in vacuum, there would be lots of smoke, on the highway if i could keep the boost gauge around 0 it would clear up, then when i would go into boost after having it clear up it would only smoke a little at 4500rpm+.
After discussing it with a licensed tech friend, we thought that it was possibly the valve stem seals. They were new Topline peices that came with the Topline gasket kit. We thought maybe i wasnt gentle enough when i installed and lapped the valves. So i bought new OEM seals and was VERY gentle when sliding them over the valve stem. I have a home built tool to compress springs with the head on the block. After this i started up the car and it did the same thing, i drove it out on the highway and under heavy vacuum, like downshifting it wouldnt smoke at all. At this point my other friend thought he could smell a little coolant in the exhaust/smoke, and it was a bit white at some points. I also noticed exhaust coming out of the crank case when i pulled out the dip stick, oil fill cap and pcv lines. So i re-torqued the head but none of them seemed loose. I did a compression test and got 170 +/- 2. The motor was at opertaing temp and also had oil puddles on the pistons.
The next thing i tried was removing the turbo and blocking off the oil and coolant lines, still no luck. I pulled off the head and tried a new Topline head gasket. This stopped the exhaust in the crank case but it still burned oil. To try and eliminate the rings being the problem I pulled off the oil pan, took out the oil squirters, blocked them off by pulling out the tube and tapping the hole and threading in a set screw. After this there was still no change, in fact it seemed lik it was gettin worse. So i pulled off the head again and took out the valves, the guides were in really bad shape, almost all cracked and one was seperating. The head was off of a car that blew a TB and bent all the valves. The machine shop that ground my seats out noticed the cracks but didnt think they were that bad. I also looked at the guides before first assembly and i know that they were nothing near as bad of shape as they were when i took it apart. Also, after removing the head when i turned the cam to open the valves oil ran out of the intake valves. I did the exhaust ones but nothing came out, most likely any oil leaking past an exhaust guide would just burn up. I carefuly removed the oem stem seals, they came off easy because they were only on the car for maybe an hour of running time. So i had the same shop replace the guides, I lapped my valves again, re-used the stem seals and the Cometic head gasket that was on for the first 600ish km. Now before i put the head back on i noticed on the front of all 4 cylinders there are verticles etches on the top 2 inches of the wall, all the way up to the top, past where the rings stop. Its almost like the piston isnt being held parralel with the wall and binding after it fires on the power stroke. I pushed on the pistons and they piveted on the wrist pin quite easily, the piston itself touched the wall on the front and back sides when i pushed them. I dont know if this is normal because i cant rember if my pistons did this when i first put them in the block. So any way I torqued the head down 20, 55, 80. Fired it up, let it run for about 20 seconds, shut it off, pulled the plugs and guess what? oil pooled up on all the pistons again!
So i pulled the head off again, grabbed my original stock head and the topline head gasket i used once for about 5 min of running time and maybe an hour of actually being bolted down. I through this all on,(this is how the car sits right now) started it up and it wont hold an idle. I'm assuming its because the stock size valves and using corrected fuel trims that were for the head with +1mm valves. Either way, there was still tons of blue smoke and even after only 5 seconds of running oil pooled on the pistons again.
So what im puzzled about is if it is the rings how can it puddle so much oil when i have the oil squirters blocked and the Eagle ESP rods do not have the oiling passage for the wrist pin. There is no oil being directly squirted/sprayed/splashed on the walls or even in the cylinder area, it even does it when the oil is at the fill mark. Another thing Im curious about is can you get good compression with a bad oil ring.
So that is my dilema, any opinions/thoughts are welcome
So here goes, Last fall i parked the car for winter and decided it was time to do a rebuild. The motor had almost 200,000km and compression was at 150 except for number 1, which was at 130. I decided i was going to do the stroker thing and went about gathering parts.
From top to bottom the new parts are as follows(if a part isnt listed, it's stock), -Oem valve stems seals, Ferrea valve guides, Ferrea +1mm SS valves, ARP head studs, Cometic HG, 0.020 over Wiseco stroker pistons, Eagle ESP rods, ACL Race rod and main bearings. I bought a used g4cs crank and had it polished, so all my bearings are standard size, but on the loose side. I'm using Rotella 15 40w for oil. Existing parts are listed in my profile but i'll list them any way, -Apexi 3" DP and Cat-Back, Pacesetter header, 3" upper and lower i/c piping, a 24"x12"x4" front mount, wally 255, Aeromotive AFPR, GReddy timing belt, MAF translator, DSMlink, AEM wide band, autometer boost and egt gauges.
All of these parts were on the car the first trip out except the valve guides and OEM stem seals. I rebuilt every thing myself, i set the 1st piston ring to 0.018 gap, the second to 0.022 and the oil rings were within minimum and maximum gap allowed. I used all 3 oil rings with 4th oil ring for support. All marks on all the rings were faced up, the fourth oil ring dimple faced down and above the wrist pin as per wiseco instructions. The head studs were torqued down to 20, 50, then 85. and re-torqued after 250km.
The first 300ish km were great, i left the wastegate acuator arm off so no boost for the first day/100km. The car pulled good and strong with expected blue smoke from exhaust. I put boost to it the next day at stock level, put another 200 km on it. When i got home it was dark so i didnt notice the smoke until the next day of driving. After start up, it would take about 15 seconds or so then blue out the exhaust. It started to foul plugs at idle and when i pulled the plugs out there was oil on all the pistons. Drivng around town in vacuum, there would be lots of smoke, on the highway if i could keep the boost gauge around 0 it would clear up, then when i would go into boost after having it clear up it would only smoke a little at 4500rpm+.
After discussing it with a licensed tech friend, we thought that it was possibly the valve stem seals. They were new Topline peices that came with the Topline gasket kit. We thought maybe i wasnt gentle enough when i installed and lapped the valves. So i bought new OEM seals and was VERY gentle when sliding them over the valve stem. I have a home built tool to compress springs with the head on the block. After this i started up the car and it did the same thing, i drove it out on the highway and under heavy vacuum, like downshifting it wouldnt smoke at all. At this point my other friend thought he could smell a little coolant in the exhaust/smoke, and it was a bit white at some points. I also noticed exhaust coming out of the crank case when i pulled out the dip stick, oil fill cap and pcv lines. So i re-torqued the head but none of them seemed loose. I did a compression test and got 170 +/- 2. The motor was at opertaing temp and also had oil puddles on the pistons.
The next thing i tried was removing the turbo and blocking off the oil and coolant lines, still no luck. I pulled off the head and tried a new Topline head gasket. This stopped the exhaust in the crank case but it still burned oil. To try and eliminate the rings being the problem I pulled off the oil pan, took out the oil squirters, blocked them off by pulling out the tube and tapping the hole and threading in a set screw. After this there was still no change, in fact it seemed lik it was gettin worse. So i pulled off the head again and took out the valves, the guides were in really bad shape, almost all cracked and one was seperating. The head was off of a car that blew a TB and bent all the valves. The machine shop that ground my seats out noticed the cracks but didnt think they were that bad. I also looked at the guides before first assembly and i know that they were nothing near as bad of shape as they were when i took it apart. Also, after removing the head when i turned the cam to open the valves oil ran out of the intake valves. I did the exhaust ones but nothing came out, most likely any oil leaking past an exhaust guide would just burn up. I carefuly removed the oem stem seals, they came off easy because they were only on the car for maybe an hour of running time. So i had the same shop replace the guides, I lapped my valves again, re-used the stem seals and the Cometic head gasket that was on for the first 600ish km. Now before i put the head back on i noticed on the front of all 4 cylinders there are verticles etches on the top 2 inches of the wall, all the way up to the top, past where the rings stop. Its almost like the piston isnt being held parralel with the wall and binding after it fires on the power stroke. I pushed on the pistons and they piveted on the wrist pin quite easily, the piston itself touched the wall on the front and back sides when i pushed them. I dont know if this is normal because i cant rember if my pistons did this when i first put them in the block. So any way I torqued the head down 20, 55, 80. Fired it up, let it run for about 20 seconds, shut it off, pulled the plugs and guess what? oil pooled up on all the pistons again!
So i pulled the head off again, grabbed my original stock head and the topline head gasket i used once for about 5 min of running time and maybe an hour of actually being bolted down. I through this all on,(this is how the car sits right now) started it up and it wont hold an idle. I'm assuming its because the stock size valves and using corrected fuel trims that were for the head with +1mm valves. Either way, there was still tons of blue smoke and even after only 5 seconds of running oil pooled on the pistons again.
So what im puzzled about is if it is the rings how can it puddle so much oil when i have the oil squirters blocked and the Eagle ESP rods do not have the oiling passage for the wrist pin. There is no oil being directly squirted/sprayed/splashed on the walls or even in the cylinder area, it even does it when the oil is at the fill mark. Another thing Im curious about is can you get good compression with a bad oil ring.
So that is my dilema, any opinions/thoughts are welcome
