New engine smokes,oil on pistons, NEED HELP!!!

[91BlackLaser]

Looks like I am coming back to the dsm community for help again. I recently bought a 2g awd car as my winter beater but I have an issue that i cant seem to figure out and I need help. A little background on this car. I bought it as a newly built 2.3l stroker car (eagle rods, JE pistons, eagle crank). The issue with the car is that it smokes constantly and i cant figure out why. It smokes the most while exhilaration from a light and or after a warm up idle and then driving away. The new engine has less than 3500kms on it and i was told the head is also freshly built. Another problem i see with the car is that the plugs are covered in oil and so are the piston tops. I did a compression test on the car and it was 171 across the board and a cold leak down test yielded 10% leakage on a dead cold motor. The steps I have taken to try and solve this are. I rebuilt the oem 16g turbo, changed all 16 valve stem seals (with head on)with supertech seal kit and then i vented both pcv and breather to the atmosphere. So after all this the car still smokes and i cant figure out why. SO i am asking for your help. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[donniekak]

Valve stem seals.

 

[doayamaha]

incorrect ring gap or to much idle time on break-in

 

[DSMReviver]

I had the same thing happened to me. On mines it had an oil leak coming form the exhaust manifold studs. The oil had make it down to the exhaust ports, once they got in the exhaust ports they were being burned of constantly.

I couldnt figure it out first, but once i notice oil drops on the concrete i know where to look and sure enough i could see drops of oil dripping from the studs. I ended up just swapping the head because i thought at the time, the problems couldn't be fix.

But in your case i would check the ports (first). intake and exhaust ports. I would check to see if you can see oils in them. if you do, find out where its coming form.

 

[91BlackLaser]

I had the same thing happened to me. On mines it had an oil leak coming form the exhaust manifold studs. The oil had make it down to the exhaust ports, once they got in the exhaust ports they were being burned of constantly.

I couldnt figure it out first, but once i notice oil drops on the concrete i know where to look and sure enough i could see drops of oil dripping from the studs. I ended up just swapping the head because i thought at the time, the problems couldn't be fix.

But in your case i would check the ports (first). intake and exhaust ports. I would check to see if you can see oils in them. if you do, find out where its coming form.

that's a possibility but i thought only the middle bottom stud has an oil passage behind it?? and that wouldn't explain the oil on the pistons

incorrect ring gap or to much idle time on break-in

Ring gap was set to .16 and .18 i dont know about break in though and if the rings weren't seated properly wouldn't it show up on compression and leak down tests?

 

[DSMReviver]

The center 3 from what ive been reading have oil passage directly behind the studs. On my head it did leak pretty well and i could see oil coming out the studs.

Again i would also check the ports, intake and exhaust ports to see if your valve steam seals are leaking. On my head, soon as i removed my exhaust manifold i could see the remains of oil in the ports.

How about your oil ring gaps(3rd ring)? were they in spec? if its too loose/broken its not going to scrape much oil. Do a compression or leak down test and see where you stand.

 

[doayamaha]

171 for a stroker seems a little low, do a wet test and see if it comes up if it does then its rings.

 

[91BlackLaser]

The center 3 from what ive been reading have oil passage directly behind the studs. On my head it did leak pretty well and i could see oil coming out the studs.

Again i would also check the ports, intake and exhaust ports to see if your valve steam seals are leaking. On my head, soon as i removed my exhaust manifold i could see the remains of oil in the ports.

How about your oil ring gaps(3rd ring)? were they in spec? if its too loose/broken its not going to scrape much oil. Do a compression or leak down test and see where you stand.

I guess i will have to pull the manifolds tomorrow to see what the deal is. I dont know have or have any info on the oil rings sorry.

 

[donniekak]

incorrect ring gap or to much idle time on break-in

A ring issue smokes pretty steady, and would have shown a problem at the leakdown test, if they were bad enough to smoke. The give away for the vss, is smoking after being under vacuum. I have seen off brand seals that don't fit correctly, and seals torn from improper installation.

 

[91BlackLaser]

A ring issue smokes pretty steady, and would have shown a problem at the leakdown test, if they were bad enough to smoke. The give away for the vss, is smoking after being under vacuum. I have seen off brand seals that don't fit correctly, and seals torn from improper installation.

very very good point. however when i installed them I made sure lubed them up great so that they didn't rip and i used a 12mm socket and gently installed them.

 

[DSMReviver]

Also what kind of smoke? white? blue? sweet smell? This will narrow things a bit. white would indicates coolant burnt and blue burnt oil more then likely. Also be aware blown turbo can cause smoke issues...

 

[91BlackLaser]

Also what kind of smoke? white? blue? sweet smell? This will narrow things a bit. white would indicates coolant burnt and blue burnt oil more then likely. Also be aware blown turbo can cause smoke issues...

its blue smoke that smells like burning oil and i rebuild the turbo just to make sure, i also disconnected the turbo from the manifold so that i could rev the car and no exhaust would go through the turbo and it still smoked straight from the manifold.

 

[MichaelSuch]

Ring gap shouldn't be an issue on oil rings. I guess it would be possible for the oil rings to be installed improperly, but it sounds like its in the head itself. Were the valves ever bent in that head? If so they could have cracked the valve guides and they would then need replaced.

 

[doayamaha]

are you getting excessive crank case pressure?

 

[91BlackLaser]

Ring gap shouldn't be an issue on oil rings. I guess it would be possible for the oil rings to be installed improperly, but it sounds like its in the head itself. Were the valves ever bent in that head? If so they could have cracked the valve guides and they would then need replaced.

The guides themselves look new and i was told they are new i also have an assembly log of pictures of the whole build and here are pics of the guides.

 

[BogusSVO]

Op.. from what you have said, smokes at warm idle and after pulling away from a light, it sounds like valve tem seals. BUT you had new ones when the head was rebuilt, then installed another set of seals.

You also say the guides have been replaced.

Now the chances are very low that 2 sets of seals were bad or installed improperly.

This leads me to conclude it is one of 2 things,

(1) The guide bores in the head were damaged when the guides were replaced and oil is passing between the OD of the guide and the ID of the guide bore in the head casting

(2) The vale to guide clearance is to large, letting the valve stem to move too much and distorting the valve seal allowing more oil to pass


One you pull the manifolds, take note of what ports are oily and what ones are dry
If the oily ports are random, I would lean towards a bad guide install

If all the ports are oily, I would lean towards too much valve guide clearance.

 

[91BlackLaser]

Op.. from what you have said, smokes at warm idle and after pulling away from a light, it sounds like valve tem seals. BUT you had new ones when the head was rebuilt, then installed another set of seals.

You also say the guides have been replaced.

Now the chances are very low that 2 sets of seals were bad or installed improperly.

This leads me to conclude it is one of 2 things,

(1) The guide bores in the head were damaged when the guides were replaced and oil is passing between the OD of the guide and the ID of the guide bore in the head casting

(2) The vale to guide clearance is to large, letting the valve stem to move too much and distorting the valve seal allowing more oil to pass


One you pull the manifolds, take note of what ports are oily and what ones are dry
If the oily ports are random, I would lean towards a bad guide install

If all the ports are oily, I would lean towards too much valve guide clearance.

awesome sir thank you very much. I was thinking something along those lines aswell but i just wasnt sure. ill have to do a little more wrenching tonight

 

[1983gsp]

And just for a good read
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

 

[delta448]

Ring gap was set to .16 and .18 i dont know about break in though and if the rings weren't seated properly wouldn't it show up on compression and leak down tests?

I hope this is a typo that you simply left out a zero. You should be at about 1/10 of those gaps, at 0.016-0.018". If you really do have gaps like that, then there's your problem. Here's the merge thread on ring gaps.

If this was the problem, it would show up more as loss on the leak down test than on a compression test, as yours does. However; 10% on a leak down isn't absolutely horrible -it could explain it, but I'd expect a little more leakage than that, possibly 14-18% even on an engine that's been broken in to the point of increasing ring seal.

I'm inclined to believe it's a valve guide/seal issue, as others already mentioned. How sure are you that the rings were correctly sized to the bores?

 

[91BlackLaser]

I hope this is a typo that you simply left out a zero. You should be at about 1/10 of those gaps, at 0.016-0.018". If you really do have gaps like that, then there's your problem. Here's the merge thread on ring gaps.

If this was the problem, it would show up more as loss on the leak down test than on a compression test, as yours does. However; 10% on a leak down isn't absolutely horrible -it could explain it, but I'd expect a little more leakage than that, possibly 14-18% even on an engine that's been broken in to the point of increasing ring seal.

I'm inclined to believe it's a valve guide/seal issue, as others already mentioned. How sure are you that the rings were correctly sized to the bores?

Sorry it was a typo i missed a zero

 

[BogusSVO]

Hope you do not run lean at those gaps.

The common gap I have seen used around this board is .020 top and .022/.024 2nd ring

 

[91BlackLaser]

Hope you do not run lean at those gaps.

The common gap I have seen used around this board is .020 top and .022/.024 2nd ring

The car will never see enough abuse for it to matter. as it sits right now the car is running pretty rich. Its my winter beater and it only has a evo 3 16g on it at 10 psi.

Ok guys i pulled the intake manifold and took a couple pics. There is definitely oil on the guides and on top of the valves.
Cylinder 1

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Cylinder 2

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Cylindr 3

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Cylinder 4

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[BogusSVO]

Look at Cyl 1 right valve, Cyl 2 right valve and cyl 4 both valve guides, just above the bevel of the guide, it looks like there is a small amout of alum adheard there.

That can be from gouging from installing the hew guide, of removal of gaulled alum from the bore from the removal of the old guide.

 

[91BlackLaser]

Look at Cyl 1 right valve, Cyl 2 right valve and cyl 4 both valve guides, just above the bevel of the guide, it looks like there is a small amout of alum adheard there.

That can be from gouging from installing the hew guide, of removal of gaulled alum from the bore from the removal of the old guide.

Thanx for the info. Is that repairable?

 

[BogusSVO]

Thanx for the info. Is that repairable?

As far as I can think of, on the car not really, I have an idea that may or may not work

Off the car, yes... the guides would have to come back out and the bores inspected, then a sealent applied when installed

Even that, with out the use of OS guides is 50/50 at best depending on how bad the guide bores are.