Need some advice on logs.

[linksys42]

Ok I am new to this so any help would be great; this is using a pocket logger. The first log is just driving normal 1st thru 2nd, I am wondering about my LTFT? Am I running lean or is this normal? The LTFT when accelerating at partial throttle goes to 9% sometimes to 10% and at idle it is at 1-2%?

The second log is 3rd gear pull to 6500rpms, let me know what ya think. Thanks

Long Term Fuel Trim 1, RPM, TPS
1.0, 934.0, ,0.0,
1.0, 895.0, 0.0,
1.0, 855.0, 3.14
1.0, 813.0, 4.72
1.0, 1293.0, 4.72
9.0, 1363.0, 9.82
9.0, 1426.0, 13.75
9.0, 1988.0, 12.57
9.0, 2035.0, 11.39
9.0, 1758.0, 11.39
9.0, 1586.0, 12.18
9.0, 1789.0, 12.97
9.0, 1992.0, 16.5
9.0, 2164.0, 17.29
9.0, 2383.0, 19.65
9.0, 2605.0, 19.65
9.0, 2813.0, 19.65
9.0, 3051.0, 19.25
9.0, 3254.0, 19.25
9.0, 3402.0, 3.54
1.0, 3391.0, 0.0
1.0, 3023.0, 0.0
9.0, 2551.0, 18.47
9.0, 2508.0, 18.47
9.0, 2156.0, 22.0
9.0, 2293.0, 24.36
9.0, 2395.0, 22.79
9.0, 2594.0, 22.4
9.0, 2695.0, 19.65
9.0, 2793.0, 17.68
9.0, 2875.0, 17.68
9.0, 2973.0, 18.86
9.0, 3063.0, 19.65
9.0, 3145.0, 27.9



Time,RPM,Timing,O2 1 Bank 1,O2 Trim 1 Bank 1

00:17.69,2566.0,28.0,0.56,-2.34
00:17.86,2602.0,28.0,0.16,-2.34
00:18.03,2648.0,28.0,0.74,-0.78
00:18.20,2691.0,24.0,0.64,-1.56
00:18.37,2730.0,21.0,0.14,-1.56
00:18.53,2781.0,14.0,0.86,-0.78
00:18.70,2836.0,9.0,0.92,0.0
00:18.87,2938.0,7.0,0.94,0.0
00:19.04,3008.0,6.0,0.94,0.0
00:19.20,3082.0,6.0,0.94,0.0
00:19.37,3168.0,7.0,0.94,0.0
00:19.54,3223.0,8.0,0.94,0.0
00:19.72,3297.0,8.0,0.94,0.0
00:19.89,3395.0,9.0,0.94,0.0
00:20.06,3477.0,9.0,0.94,0.0
00:20.23,3563.0,9.0,0.94,0.0
00:20.62,3750.0,9.0,0.94,0.0
00:20.79,3824.0,10.0,0.94,0.0
00:20.96,3883.0,10.0,0.94,0.0
00:21.13,3977.0,11.0,0.94,0.0
00:21.30,4055.0,11.0,0.94,0.0
00:21.47,4125.0,11.0,0.94,0.0
00:21.64,4184.0,11.0,0.96,0.0
00:21.80,4281.0,11.0,0.96,0.0
00:22.20,4453.0,10.0,0.96,0.0
00:22.37,4539.0,10.0,0.96,0.0
00:22.54,4605.0,10.0,0.94,0.0
00:22.72,4652.0,10.0,0.94,0.0
00:22.88,4742.0,11.0,0.94,0.0
00:23.05,4813.0,11.0,0.94,0.0
00:23.22,4867.0,12.0,0.94,0.0
00:23.62,5047.0,12.0,0.94,0.0
00:23.79,5113.0,14.0,0.94,0.0
00:23.96,5176.0,14.0,0.94,0.0
00:24.13,5227.0,15.0,0.94,0.0
00:24.30,5332.0,16.0,0.94,0.0
00:24.47,5387.0,16.0,0.94,0.0
00:24.64,5441.0,16.0,0.94,0.0
00:24.81,5527.0,17.0,0.94,0.0
00:24.97,5590.0,17.0,0.94,0.0
00:25.14,5645.0,18.0,0.94,0.0
00:25.31,5703.0,19.0,0.94,0.0
00:25.48,5766.0,19.0,0.94,0.0
00:25.65,5828.0,19.0,0.94,0.0
00:25.84,5891.0,19.0,0.94,0.0
00:26.01,5938.0,20.0,0.94,0.0
00:26.18,6004.0,20.0,0.94,0.0
00:26.35,6055.0,20.0,0.94,0.0
00:26.52,6109.0,20.0,0.94,0.0
00:26.69,6164.0,20.0,0.94,0.0
00:26.86,6230.0,20.0,0.94,0.0
00:27.03,6277.0,21.0,0.94,0.0
00:27.43,6387.0,22.0,0.94,0.0
00:27.60,6453.0,22.0,0.94,0.0
00:27.98,6543.0,22.0,0.94,0.0
00:28.15,6414.0,23.0,0.84,0.0
00:28.32,5949.0,38.0,0.68,0.0

 

[spyderturbo007]

Looks good on the second log, except for a spot at 4500 where you lose one degree. That could be from rising coolant temps, IAT's went up, etc. Let's just leave the SAFC alone for right now and make another pull. This time, log timing, rpm, O2 and airflow. You can drop O2 trim because it means nothing at WOT.

 

[linksys42]

Ohh, im trying to figure out a problem with my cars partial throttle (that 9-10%), Just normal driving. I don’t have my SAFC installed yet just trying to get the car running right and figure out problems before I install my big 16G, exhaust, 190L pump, and SAFC. I seem to have a partial throttle drivability prob it doesn’t pull like it did just tooling around town (normal driving). Like something is holding it back. And I saw that at idle the LTFT is at 1-2% then when I put any load on the engine it goes up to 8-10% which scares me! that means lean correct? I read that the ECU will throw a CEL if it goes above 12% because it can’t trim the fuel out after that percentage. It’s just weird because it seems to be ok on a WOT run in Open loop mode. From what I have read it seems to be a little flat from 4000-4600 along with the timing being pulled also. But it does reach 23* of timing at 6400 RPMS, that’s pretty good right? Thanks for the help

 

[spyderturbo007]

I seem to have a partial throttle drivability prob it doesn’t pull like it did just tooling around town (normal driving). Like something is holding it back.

I'm not sure what you mean here......

And I saw that at idle the LTFT is at 1-2% then when I put any load on the engine it goes up to 8-10% which scares me! that means lean correct?

Don't worry about it. FT's bounce around all the time depending on TPS, load, rpm, blah, blah. Just try to get them set at your Ne points when you install the SAFC and "drive on".

I read that the ECU will throw a CEL if it goes above 12% because it can’t trim the fuel out after that percentage.

Actually, that's only when there is sustained a FT outside the ECU's adjustment range. You will get a "Fuel Trim Malfunction Bank 1" when that happens. I got it when the shop that installed my 16g decided to beat my O2 sensor with a hammer. Then proceeded to deny it.

Anyway, don't worry about it until you see the CEL.

From what I have read it seems to be a little flat from 4000-4600 along with the timing being pulled also. But it does reach 23* of timing at 6400 RPMS, that’s pretty good right? Thanks for the help

That's what I was saying in my previous post. There are other things than knock that influence the timing. Such as IAT, anything over 84 degrees and you loose one degree of timing. Any coolant temp over 206 and you loose another degree. Timing maps are also airflow related, meaning the higher the airflow, the lower the ECU sets it's target timing. So you could have hit a spot where the IAT went from 83 to 85 degrees and the ECU took a degree. A flat spot can also be a point where you were moved into another timing map when your airflow increased beyond a set point.

This is an area where you have to use some experience along with a little guessing. I would say that it isn't knock based on your O2 voltage (<-- Let the flaming begin). You can see that your O2 voltage is acually higher in that area then the rest of the log. It's not high enough to cause rich knock, but it does show a richer condition. The rest of the log is a lower voltage and shows no indication of knock, at all. So you can assume that the flat spot and timing pull is not related to knock. Chances are, if you make another pull that flat spot will go away. If it doesn't, and is a consistent during every pull, then you know it's knock and you need to make an adjustment.

Too many people go an change their SAFC settings after every run and start to confuse themselves. They freak out everytime they see something that might even closely resemble knock and go changing there settings all over the place. With a log like yours, I would leave your settings alone and make a couple more pulls. Then compile all your data and take a look at trends. Such as peak airflow, flat spots, peak timing, minimum timing, etc. Then you can see more of the picture and make a more informed decision about changes than you can by just looking at one log.

Wow, I'm done, because my fingers hurt.

 

[linksys42]

I'm not sure what you mean here......


Don't worry about it. FT's bounce around all the time depending on TPS, load, rpm, blah, blah. Just try to get them set at your Ne points when you install the SAFC and "drive on".

What I was trying to say is that just normal driving around town (like to and from the grocery store) . It tends to bog allot. Like something is holding the car back, I step on the gas to make the car go and its not accelerating like before. Ill give you an example. There is a hill on the highway on my way home from work when I first got the car it pulled up it with barely any throttle 10%. Now im having to give it like 50% throttle or it wont make it up the hill with out down shifting. It sucks; I can't figure what the problem is? It also at the same time started missing at idle and having trouble keeping the timing steady at idle. I want to figure out what the prob is before I start bolting on parts. It's frustrating.


What are Ne points? I was reading on digital tuning's web site that your supposed to have the LTFT at 0%? Am I wrong? Exactly what are they talking about?

"From: Paul
Car: 95 GST
Continued from Long Term Fuel Trim... Now view your STFT's over the next few days keeping them at +/-0% by fine-tuning with the SAFC. Be sure to note any changes to the LTFT and get the value back to 0. That's a good rough tune to get you in the right direction for more advanced tuning"


I also did another pull in third down below; let me know what ya think. and sorry about the long post. Thanks again for all your help. It's appreciated


Time,RPM,Timing,Airflow,O2 1 Bank 1,O2 Trim 1 Bank 1

00:22.03,2227.0,23.0,0.75,0.02,0.0
00:22.26,2398.0,22.0,1.28,0.02,1.56
00:22.47,2328.0,31.0,1.86,0.92,1.56
00:22.70,2344.0,31.0,2.03,0.88,0.0
00:22.94,2363.0,29.0,2.62,0.86,-0.78
00:23.17,2387.0,29.0,2.73,0.38,-2.34
00:23.40,2410.0,29.0,2.92,0.14,-0.78
00:23.62,2449.0,28.0,3.75,0.82,0.0
00:23.86,2500.0,26.0,4.71,0.14,-0.78
00:24.09,2547.0,24.0,5.3,0.88,0.0
00:24.31,2609.0,22.0,5.79,0.72,-1.56
00:24.54,2668.0,18.0,6.77,0.08,-1.56
00:24.77,2738.0,11.0,8.42,0.96,0.0
00:25.00,2832.0,7.0,10.25,0.98,0.0
00:25.22,2918.0,7.0,11.69,0.98,0.0
00:25.45,3012.0,7.0,12.42,0.98,0.0
00:25.68,3125.0,8.0,12.25,0.98,0.0
00:25.90,3215.0,8.0,12.39,0.98,0.0
00:26.13,3313.0,8.0,12.84,0.98,0.0
00:26.37,3414.0,9.0,13.23,0.98,0.0
00:26.59,3500.0,9.0,13.7,0.98,0.0
00:26.81,3602.0,9.0,14.14,0.98,0.0
00:27.04,3684.0,9.0,14.58,0.98,0.0
00:27.29,3793.0,10.0,15.05,0.98,0.0
00:27.52,3891.0,10.0,15.34,0.98,0.0
00:27.73,3973.0,11.0,15.83,0.98,0.0
00:27.96,4070.0,11.0,16.2,0.98,0.0
00:28.20,4160.0,11.0,16.63,0.98,0.0
00:28.43,4258.0,11.0,17.06,0.98,0.0
00:28.64,4336.0,12.0,17.51,0.98,0.0
00:28.87,4434.0,12.0,17.72,0.98,0.0
00:29.12,4512.0,12.0,18.0,0.98,0.0
00:29.35,4617.0,12.0,18.29,0.98,0.0
00:29.56,4699.0,13.0,18.53,0.96,0.0
00:30.03,4863.0,13.0,19.03,0.96,0.0
00:30.48,5035.0,13.0,19.35,0.96,0.0
00:30.94,5199.0,15.0,19.82,0.96,0.0
00:31.18,5277.0,16.0,20.07,0.96,0.0
00:31.40,5355.0,16.0,20.44,0.96,0.0
00:31.63,5426.0,16.0,20.64,0.96,0.0
00:31.86,5508.0,17.0,20.72,0.96,0.0
00:32.54,5730.0,17.0,20.9,0.96,0.0
00:32.77,5805.0,19.0,21.28,0.96,0.0
00:33.00,5863.0,19.0,21.4,0.96,0.0
00:33.22,5930.0,20.0,21.48,0.96,0.0
00:33.45,6000.0,21.0,21.5,0.96,0.0
00:33.68,6066.0,21.0,21.57,0.96,0.0
00:33.90,6117.0,21.0,21.67,0.96,0.0
00:34.13,6191.0,21.0,21.82,0.96,0.0
00:34.36,6238.0,21.0,21.86,0.96,0.0
00:34.59,6301.0,22.0,21.97,0.96,0.0
00:35.04,6426.0,22.0,22.0,0.96,0.0
00:35.29,6184.0,23.0,21.73,0.94,0.0

 

[spyderturbo007]

Ne points are what Apexi calls the 12 points where you set your corrections. So they are basically what rpm values you used when you set up the SAFC.

As for the bogging, I'm not sure what it could be seeing as you haven't mentioned any problems with WOT. I'll have to think about that one.

With a 2g you want your FT's to add up to 0, which in time will lead to the LTFT becoming 0, so you are correct. What they are saying there, is to set your trims then transfer those settings to the Hi throttle map and start with your WOT tuning from those points. It provides for a rough baseline. I really don't subscribe to that theory because of the drastic differences in how each car's trims work. If I had done that, I would have started at -10% and had a lot of work to do by the time I made it to my -33% final tune.

Your log looks great . Nice timing drop at full boost, then a consistent increase all the way to redline ending up around the 20+ range. Looks really good. Next thing to do is either lean it out some more or turn up the boost. What boost are you currently running? What are your correction values in the 6 - 7k range?

Also, you can drop the O2 trim from the log since it doesn't matter at WOT. Just to get yourself some additional data points.

 

[linksys42]

With a 2g you want your FT's to add up to 0, which in time will lead to the LTFT becoming 0, so you are correct. What they are saying there, is to set your trims then transfer those settings to the Hi throttle map and start with your WOT tuning from those points. It provides for a rough baseline. I really don't subscribe to that theory because of the drastic differences in how each car's trims work. If I had done that, I would have started at -10% and had a lot of work to do by the time I made it to my -33% final tune.

What boost are you currently running? What are your correction values in the 6 - 7k range?.

ok so let me see if i got this strait, keep in mind that i havent installed the SAFC yet. so are you talking about geting the STFT to 0% through out the hole rpm range then over time the LTFT will correct itself to get too 0%? then you transfer the base line that you just set into the HI throttal map? is there a base line map that comes pre programed into the SAFC for the second gen so you have somthing to start from?

I am running 12 psi of boost. are you talking about the correction values in the SAFC? because i dont have the SAFC installed yet. i want to get an idea for what i am doing before i go and install it, so i dont lean my engine out and toast it. thanks again for all your help!

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

I think they were assuming you have an safc. You're pretty close to stock and running pretty safe boost. I don't think you have much to worry about running lean. That's probably why your timing already looks pretty good since you haven't ventured that far from stock yet. Have you checked your ic piping for any leaks to explain your loss of power?

When I had 450s and smic, I was running just 15 lbs off my T28. The most I could correct for on the T28 was leaning out 5%...which netted me my best dyno numbers. Any additional boost caused me to lose power thanks to the smic heat soaking.

I'm trying to learn afc/logger tuning myself. It'll probably make a lot more sense when you install it. For now I don't think you have anything to worry about because your ecu should compensate well enough with your mods. With the setup I had before I didn't even need the safc except to correct a tiny bit for more efficiency. I drove around for awhile without one...the ecu just ran me richer than stock, that's all.

 

[spyderturbo007]

ok so let me see if i got this strait, keep in mind that i havent installed the SAFC yet. so are you talking about geting the STFT to 0% through out the hole rpm range then over time the LTFT will correct itself to get too 0%? then you transfer the base line that you just set into the HI throttal map? is there a base line map that comes pre programed into the SAFC for the second gen so you have somthing to start from?

I am running 12 psi of boost. are you talking about the correction values in the SAFC? because i dont have the SAFC installed yet. i want to get an idea for what i am doing before i go and install it, so i dont lean my engine out and toast it. thanks again for all your help!

Instead of me typing out the FT stuff, I'll just give you a link because I'm lazy.

http://www.racingknowledge.org/ver3/viewtopic.php?t=1011

Nope, no baseline correction preprogrammed in the SAFC. You have to calculate your baseline from the injector size you are using. I normally subtract a couple of percent from the calculated value so you are on the rich side when you start your tune.

I thought you already had your injectors and SAFC installed......Oooops.

Yes, I was talking about the correction values in the SAFC. You won't toast anything if you play it safe by starting on the rich side. Also, I recommend making small adjustment, logging, make another small adjustment, log again and repeat. That way you can really keep an eye on what's going on.

Let me know after you get everything installed and we can go over some things that you need to do before you start your tune.

 

[linksys42]

This is a pull in 2nd gear im worried because it looks like its pulling timing at 3000 to 3688 then again at 4200 to 5000 rpms? This is only at 12psi. should I be worried???? thanks

Time,RPM,Timing,Air Temp,O2 1 Bank 1,O2 Trim 1 Bank 1

01:01.33,2309.0,28.0,88.0,0.88,-0.78
01:01.56,2383.0,27.0,86.0,0.1,-1.56
01:01.79,2438.0,28.0,86.0,0.86,0.0
01:02.00,2516.0,28.0,86.0,0.54,-1.56
01:02.24,2602.0,28.0,86.0,0.1,0.0
01:02.70,2875.0,23.0,86.0,0.84,0.0
01:02.91,3059.0,9.0,84.0,0.96,0.0
01:03.13,3238.0,8.0,84.0,0.96,0.0
01:03.36,3480.0,8.0,84.0,0.96,0.0
01:03.59,3688.0,8.0,82.0,0.96,0.0
01:03.81,3902.0,9.0,82.0,0.96,0.0
01:04.04,4102.0,12.0,82.0,0.96,0.0
01:04.26,4285.0,12.0,81.0,0.98,0.0
01:04.48,4457.0,11.0,81.0,0.98,0.0
01:04.70,4668.0,11.0,81.0,0.98,0.0
01:04.93,4828.0,11.0,81.0,0.96,0.0
01:05.16,5027.0,12.0,79.0,0.96,0.0
01:05.40,5211.0,14.0,79.0,0.96,0.0
01:05.62,5406.0,16.0,79.0,0.96,0.0
01:05.83,5578.0,18.0,79.0,0.96,0.0
01:06.06,5738.0,18.0,79.0,0.96,0.0
01:06.30,5902.0,20.0,77.0,0.96,0.0
01:06.51,6063.0,21.0,77.0,0.96,0.0
01:06.75,6203.0,21.0,77.0,0.96,0.0
01:07.19,5938.0,21.0,77.0,0.96,0.0

 

[CanadianTSi]

You can't over annalyze your logs, there never going to be exactly perfect. If you try to make them perfect you will go crazy "re-tuning" everyday.

Your logs look pretty darn good to me.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Why does he top out at 21* in WOT, yet cruises at 28*? Isn't higher better as long as there isn't appreciable knock?

 

[spyderturbo007]

The reason for the timing change between WOT and around town driving is that the ECU is attempting to eliminate knock. Around town driving will see timing much higher than any WOT ever will.

High timing + High Boost = BOOM!



Yes, higher timing provides more power than lower timing at the same airflow. But the higher the timing, the higher your chance of detonating (knock).

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

I'm going to need to pull a log in a few days then, good to know.

 

[spyderturbo007]

The most recent log looks OK, but without the SAFC installed, there really isn't much you can do about it. Like Tyler said, your logs will change with temperature, humidity, phase of the moon, blah, blah.

If I remember correctly, you are on the stock fuel system, and T-25? If so, I would crank up the boost to about 15psi and make another pull. Provided there are no leaks, plugs are gapped correctly, etc.

Your O2's are still pretty high and timing looks really good except for that 1 degree pull. Since your other logs looked perfect, I'm not too concerned about the small drop in timing in this log.

 

[spyderturbo007]

I'm going to need to pull a log in a few days then, good to know.

Since you are pretty new in the tuning section, I'll give you my normal safety speech....


BE CAREFUL WHEN MAKING A 3rd GEAR PULL.

The best time is about 12am on a weeknight, when normal people are in bed and the drunks are still at the bar.

[/safety speech off]

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

I was thinking more like 5pm rush hour.

And it'll have to be a 2nd gear pull to 80, seeing as I have a built a/t.