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Need input on 14b 2g turbo plans.

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Murdertalon

Proven Member
396
82
Jul 7, 2016
East side, Washington
I picked up a 14b 49178- 01010 - 12fin compressor side with what looks like an evo3 exhaust side 6cm housing. No in and out play, little side to side but Ive since read that is normal for these turbos.

I'm not in a rush to bolt this thing on and see what it can do, I do eventually want to give it a go though. From what I have researched so far the 14b with the 6cm exhaust side is a great setup for this turbo.

Wanting to put things together properly what injectors are a good fit for this thing? Is it safe to run with stock injectors at ballpark 15#? I do plan on getting ECM Link and need to do some other work on the car already before I even think about using this turbo.

As far as plans go this will be the largest turbo I will go to period. Quicker spool is ideal, I want around 300-350?hp I would prefer that the car lasts longer without breaking things and so far I have fixed many many non engine related issues. Some engine related too.

If anyone is familiar with how this will spool vs the t25 I am curious. I like the silly fast spool of the t25 and from what I read you still get fast spool with a 14b and if you use the smaller 6cm exhaust it makes it sing. I read some posts saying the 7cm will reduce spool time too much which I don't want.

Will I be looking at needing a higher flow fuel pump and or Aftermarket fuel pressure regulator I mean maybe for tuning but even to run it?

I have ridden in a 1g stock with cranked up boost on the 14b doing autocross and it was unreal! It was running about 20# but it spooled amazing and the car pulled amazing for the short road work. I just put koni's and eibach pro kit springs in.
 
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Boost/power band falls off hard at 6500rpm but 14b's are very fun turbos. Currently putting a 14b on a 1.8 Miata. It'll be a fun 250whp car at 2100lbs.
 
The route cause for a wheezing 14b up top is simply a mismatch between airflow demands of the engine and compressor and turbine capabilities. With smaller turbos, when an engine really starts breathing a small compressor runs really far off of the optimal efficiency island, same thing happens to the turbine, then the turbo speed runs into a wall. In fact, increasing turbo speed beyond a certain point is useless because you either fail one of the wheels at a critical tip speed OR one of the wheels stalls out and mass airflow essentially chokes. When this happens the pressure ratio across the compressor stage plummets with increasing mass airflow demanded by the engine and there's not much you can do besides switch to a larger, more capable compressor and turbine combo. Thermodynamics allows you to play all sorts of games in the turbine stage to try to keep the pressure ratio up, but the core problem(s) remain unchanged.

That being said, I do like the mannersims of the 14b and believe that it's a hard turbo to beat for something like autox. Even in classes like SM, which are essentially unlimited, solo national champ cars still run nothing much bigger than a Garrett GT28 which is only marginally more capable than a 14b in terms of peak airflow (think of it as a 16g with spool characteristics of a 14b due to more modern wheel airfoil geometry in both compressor and turbine stages).

The gt28 is a ball bearing turbo correct? You have to restrict oil flow to them and I wonder how many meet an early death because they don't get setup correctly. Research I have been doing on turbos and oil flow says anything larger than a 14b you should tap a new larger drain hole in your oil pan and run larger diameter tubing because the turbo can have tendancy to build up oil pressure and destroy the seals- while with a BB turbo if you dont restrict the incoming psi and flow dramatically it will destroy the bearings too. Touchy!

Boost/power band falls off hard at 6500rpm but 14b's are very fun turbos. Currently putting a 14b on a 1.8 Miata. It'll be a fun 250whp car at 2100lbs.
The current t25 in there dies at 5k+ so I have about 1000RPM where its not really pulling any harder, I also don't like to quite hit rev limiter so 6500 - 6700 is where I shift anyway. Yeah the miatta should like that turbo.. I would think that working with a smaller 1.8L engine that you might even get decent use out of a t25? obviously that could limit top end so why not go with the 14b. I wonder if you would get close to the same performance with a t25 though.
 
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The gt28 is a ball bearing turbo correct? You have to restrict oil flow to them and I wonder how many meet an early death because they don't get setup correctly. Research I have been doing on turbos and oil flow says anything larger than a 14b you should tap a new larger drain hole in your oil pan and run larger diameter tubing because the turbo can have tendancy to build up oil pressure and destroy the seals- while with a BB turbo if you dont restrict the incoming psi and flow dramatically it will destroy the bearings too. Touchy!


The current t25 in there dies at 5k+ so I have about 1000RPM where its not really pulling any harder, I also don't like to quite hit rev limiter so 6500 - 6700 is where I shift anyway.

Yep, ball bearing turbo with different oil flow requirements than journal bearings. In theory, the ball bearing turbos should be more robust than journal bearing turbos and provide a slight improvement in turbine shaft friction, but you have to get the required oiling pressure. Truth be told, though, the thrust bearings and oil seals on journal bearing turbos are rather particular about lubrication pressure as well, so they both have their quirks in that regard.

For your money, I don't really think ball bearing technology has proven to be all it was played up to be over the last 10 or so years. Higher initial cost, can't rebuild the center housing, and they offer a really marginal transient performance benefit. If you have the money, VGT is the way to go for a super-fast transient technology; turbo companies finally figured out how to put nozzles in the turbine stage.
 
So anyone running this, Should I spring for some 1000cc (ish) injectors or 660cc or just stock to begin?
This turbo will work with stock 2g_a exhaust manifold?

Done:
14b and 6cm exhaust
(have test pipe not installed)
Temps in check
Rewire fuel pump
New fuel filter


Need:
? Injectors XXXcc
ECM Link
Gaskets or make gaskets
Bolts for turbo to mani
Test Pipe
Oil lines for turbo/ one is missing
Clean K&N Cone
AFR gauge.. car does have AFR in ecu though I think?

Stretch goal:
EGT
 
I think you'd be fine with 660cc injectors.. I'm maxing out my 850s at the higher boost with the 68hta, if you stay to 18-20 psi you'd be fine.
ECMlink definitely.
which oil line are you missing?
It is imperative that you have a wideband


Why would you want an EGT gauge if you already have a wideband/AFR?
 
I see my name was mentioned. Looks like most of the basics have been covered in this thread though.

The 6cm turbine housing is what comes stock on the 14b, the 7cm from a big 16g or 7cm2 housing from the evo III is a marginal upgrade as it reduces backpressure. In turn it spools slightly later but the majority would never notice.

I run 1050cc injectors with E85 and it's more than enough injector. The 450's will take you as far as you ever need to go on pump gas and the 14b. But, if you plan on running E85, race gas, or upgrading anywhere down the line then consider upgrading. Always go larger than necessary, with Link or any other decent tuning program there is no sense in going with just enough injector. You'll want to upgrade the turbo, run more boost, or switch to E85 at some point. I'd recommend nothing smaller than the 1050's, you aren't saving enough money with the smaller injectors anyway.

EGT still has it's benefits, but with a wideband and link it isn't necessary. Certainly not on a 14b setup. Get a wideband and link....

Boost is going to fall off with anything other than stock cams. It'll most likely fall off with stock cams once you have everything working efficiently as possible. This isn't a big deal. Mine spikes to 24 and falls off to between 16-18 psi.

There is a boost threshold, for my setup it seems to be 24-25 psi. It'll make more as I've seen 28-29 psi with good air, it just makes less power than at 24-25. I've ran 11's at 18 psi on a very light car, but you don't need to make crazy boost to make good power.

350 hp on a 14b is dreaming, 300 is a big number on this turbo and would be achieved with e85, meth injection, or race gas.

The sidemount on a 2g or 1g is not adequate to make good power. Even with cool ambient temps you'll be much better off and make more power on even a cheap fmic. I still recommend you go with quality, paint it black if you're worried about the look. This isn't to say you can't go quick on a sidemount, but it's going to heatsoak quickly.

On anything other than ethanol a walbro 190lph pump will get you by on a 14b. But, as with anything if you plan on upgrading down the road at any point just get the 255 and spring for an afpr. It'll make tuning that much easier anyway.

Boost leak test, ensure you have no exhaust leaks, lighten the car to whatever point you are comfortable, take your time tuning, and have fun. The 14b rocks, I'm going to miss it when I upgrade.
 
I see my name was mentioned. Looks like most of the basics have been covered in this thread though.

The 6cm turbine housing is what comes stock on the 14b, the 7cm from a big 16g or 7cm2 housing from the evo III is a marginal upgrade as it reduces backpressure. In turn it spools slightly later but the majority would never notice.

I run 1050cc injectors with E85 and it's more than enough injector. The 450's will take you as far as you ever need to go on pump gas and the 14b. But, if you plan on running E85, race gas, or upgrading anywhere down the line then consider upgrading. Always go larger than necessary, with Link or any other decent tuning program there is no sense in going with just enough injector. You'll want to upgrade the turbo, run more boost, or switch to E85 at some point. I'd recommend nothing smaller than the 1050's, you aren't saving enough money with the smaller injectors anyway.

EGT still has it's benefits, but with a wideband and link it isn't necessary. Certainly not on a 14b setup. Get a wideband and link....

Boost is going to fall off with anything other than stock cams. It'll most likely fall off with stock cams once you have everything working efficiently as possible. This isn't a big deal. Mine spikes to 24 and falls off to between 16-18 psi.

There is a boost threshold, for my setup it seems to be 24-25 psi. It'll make more as I've seen 28-29 psi with good air, it just makes less power than at 24-25. I've ran 11's at 18 psi on a very light car, but you don't need to make crazy boost to make good power.

350 hp on a 14b is dreaming, 300 is a big number on this turbo and would be achieved with e85, meth injection, or race gas.

So the guy I bought the turbo off of likely didn't know what he was on about with the hot side? It is 6cm and its not square its rounded on two sides from what I looked up that is the evo3 one, but I haven't owned a 1g dsm so I couldn't say for sure. Huh Idk I just looked up the evo3 one and it looks like that so I have no idea what it is. Seems to measure 6cm on the opening though.

If the stock injectors will take me as far as I want on pump gas then I am set and wont worry about for now.

I really didn't have much of an idea what I would be looking at for power numbers I thought 300 was capable on a 14b, but maybe its quite a bit different than the 16g.. Its ok though I don't really want to be focused on power numbers more on feel of the car.

EGT has been a hard line push from my buddy I work with he has a 3rd gen Supra turbo that he swears by EGT mostly to see what your actual output temps are. His thoughts on the matter are that even guys that have good tunes often don't know how hard they are pushing their engines and sometimes exhaust temps tell you where to back off.
 
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Why isn't anybody showing the small 16g love here?! I think it's tits. Quick spool up like a t25 (still the quickest spool up imo but annoyingly so sometimes) and 14b but I think better than the latter and i feel substantial power up top. I've only felt a 14b in a 1g so I can't verify performance in a 2g. But depending what you're up to, you can always pair a 14b or s16g with 550s, Evo 560s or up to 650s with nothing more than evo or 190 fuel pump and a safc and hit about 16-18psi safely. Or just leave stock injectors with a pump rewire. The only benefit youll notice with stock injectors is the turbo wont poop out on you.I'm completely happy with my $500 setup ($300 for turbo, $100 560s, $100 safc) for street use. I don't need more and I feel it's more reliable. If something happens with my safc the car will still run LOL. I don't need link for just upping the boost a little.

I actually found a 14b on Craigslist for $20, dude didn't know what it was. Little shaft play but looks like it was stored in someone's ass for 20 years. Over the winter I'm going to rebuild it and possibly slap it on in the spring just for kicks and possibly rebuild my s16g
 
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EGT has been a hard line push from my buddy I work with he has a 3rd gen Supra turbo that he swears by EGT mostly to see what your actual output temps are. His thoughts on the matter are that even guys that have good tunes often don't know how hard they are pushing their engines and sometimes exhaust temps tell you where to back off.

In the OEM world, EGT is used to ensure that material limitations are not being exceeded (in particular, turbine inlet temperatures are a big deal and often a limiting factor). However, unless you plan on using EGT as a limiting factor in your tune and you have some piece of equipment you're trying to protect and know the temperature limits of, my opinion is that it won't do much good if you already have AFR, especially with a 14b.

If you want the turbo to last long time you could look up the infinite design life temperature limit for whatever material the turbine is and use that as a tuning limit for turbine inlet measurements. But again, I'm not sure that would be worthwhile as it seems most people hit the limits of the turbo before finding EGT values high enough to fail the turbine.
 
I only see EGT being good for standing mile or land speed events which give you an overall on sustainted temps for long durations. The reading they give should only be taking with a grain of salt if you don't understand how it works in conjunction with knowing your setup and tune. A change in anything will effect egt's(cams/timing/back pressure/ afr...etc) I.e. Running rich and low timing will skyrocket egts giving you a false belief that something is wrong. But it's perfectly safe for the motor.

In short, looking at a wideband gauge is more informative to a novice than and EGT.
 
To sum up my experience modifying a dsm

$150 turbo
$100 2g turbo install kit
$40 in New studs and turbo bolts, misc gaskets
$90 for 190lph fuel pump
$300 for ecm link
$250 for front mount intercooler kit
$150 for wideband setup

That's over $1k in parts to gain 40hp

So I'm not being stingy, and not accounting for used parts. You've just put 1/3 of the typical purchase price of the good condition 2g into modifications to make less than 300whp.

You're not even accounting for the basic maintenance of the car. How old is the clutch, how old is the water pump, what shape are the axles in.

I've had an evo3 16g setup with bc264 camshafts. You end up wanting more. 300whp isn't enough to even poke at the new sports cars that come out these days.

Not trying to be negative but be realistic about your expectations. The car better be worth investing a grand into, and you better be ready to know how to turn a wrench and set a hydraulic tensioner and the timing pulley before you dip your toes in the turbo water. It's not easy, it's not cheap
 
You lost me man? are you? I mean the 13b still flows more than the t25 right? The 14b that I rode in, I was shocked at how well it performed.



This information is quite helpful. I can live with a 3k spool point thats about where my t25 comes on now, maybe its not performing optimally.. I also got a test pipe on the way so that might allow better flow I need to examine my CAT as it is likely the stock 20 year old one and who knows how that looks inside. Right now my car is quick, but not as quick as I feel it should be unless I really rev the piss out of it. I will have to post about how the car runs with either a high flow cat or a test pipe later.. Now I am wondering how much I might gain from just addressing that issue.

I have torque for android and a ELM327 I havent looked for a knock readout on there, but it might have one? It does show timing advance or retard.

ELM327? What are you using for a setup? I was trying to read the OBD/MUT2 stuff from my ECU unsuccessfully. Curious how/what you have....
 
To sum up my experience modifying a dsm
Not trying to be negative but be realistic about your expectations. The car better be worth investing a grand into, and you better be ready to know how to turn a wrench and set a hydraulic tensioner and the timing pulley before you dip your toes in the turbo water. It's not easy, it's not cheap

I already have at least 6k into it (conservative estimate) just to have it running stock turbo and brand new koni's. The list of parts I have worked on and replaced is rather long. NGK BR6 plugs, Fresh plug wires, Door handles, DR window regulator, Door lock actuator, rims, head gasket, water pump, fuel pump, injectors, new wiring harness (yep the one from the ecu to the engine), had no stereo when I got it, purchased factory fobs and got the stock auto locks to work, temp sensors, clutch master and slave, 1g bov and all new hard pipes I pieced together for running side mount, Fuel pump rewire/relay, Fluidamper pulley, New real K&N cone, Fixed the driver seat motor assembly, replaced passenger side power mirror, replaced missing blinker markers /bulbs and wiring on bumper, thermostat (modded evo 9), coolant cap modified my design, flushed transmission and refilled with amsoil syncromesh, Transmission was rebuilt before I got it still performs no issues, run only VR1 20w50 high zinc with mitsubishi oem oil filters, I am looking at getting the AEM Failsafe PSI/AFR gauge it runs 320 alone.

I just dropped a grand into the suspension LOL and that was the half price version installing it myself, still getting ground control later because I don't like how low it sits now.

Did I mention that I did all of this myself except the head gasket which was done by a shop that will never touch my car again because of all the stuff I had to fix once I got it back.. I would have done that too, I just don't like working in the yard while there is snow on the ground. The DSM is not my DD, maybe I will DD it again at some point but its not perfect so in no rush.

If this car ever gets totaled I probably wont want to put this much work into another DSM. I will get a stock EVO X or a BMW and put a drop in K&N on it and a K&N sticker you know for that +5hp. Then if I get totaled in an insurance situation I wont lost my mind over the work I put into the damn car without ever getting compensation.
 
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ELM327? What are you using for a setup? I was trying to read the OBD/MUT2 stuff from my ECU unsuccessfully. Curious how/what you have....

ELM 327 (obd2) ebay approx 20$ the version I have is BlueTooth and connects to any android device, you need the app torque and some mitsubishi add ons. Sometimes it wont pair instantly but thats not a big deal. You can read pretty much everything the ECU can see and make custom gauges.

I was thinking about ordering the wifi version and seeing which one I like or dont like. I also have a windows tablet running an android emulator running torque that requires wifi connection because the bluetooth stack function is borked.
 
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Why isn't anybody showing the small 16g love here?! I think it's tits. Quick spool up like a t25 (still the quickest spool up imo but annoyingly so sometimes) and 14b but I think better than the latter and i feel substantial power up top. I've only felt a 14b in a 1g so I can't verify performance in a 2g. But depending what you're up to, you can always pair a 14b or s16g with 550s, Evo 560s or up to 650s with nothing more than evo or 190 fuel pump and a safc and hit about 16-18psi safely. Or just leave stock injectors with a pump rewire. The only benefit youll notice with stock injectors is the turbo wont poop out on you.I'm completely happy with my $500 setup ($300 for turbo, $100 560s, $100 safc) for street use. I don't need more and I feel it's more reliable. If something happens with my safc the car will still run LOL. I don't need link for just upping the boost a little.
Almost the exact set up I was running in my 1g gsx. Evo 10 fuel pump, evo 560's, small 16g, safc2. I also had a palm pocket logger to watch for knock and fuel trims. This is a great low dollar big fun set up for sure. At 20ish psi it was fun on the street and safe with no knock. I got the s16g for $100 (craigslist steal!), safc for $100, evo 560's for $80, and evo 10 fuel pump for $10. Really good set up to get your feet wet or to keep it mild.
 
I already have at least 6k into it (conservative estimate) just to have it running stock turbo and brand new koni's. The list of parts I have worked on and replaced is rather long. NGK BR6 plugs, Fresh plug wires, Door handles, DR window regulator, Door lock actuator, rims, head gasket, water pump, fuel pump, injectors, new wiring harness (yep the one from the ecu to the engine), had no stereo when I got it, purchased factory fobs and got the stock auto locks to work, temp sensors, clutch master and slave, 1g bov and all new hard pipes I pieced together for running side mount, Fuel pump rewire/relay, Fluidamper pulley, New real K&N cone, Fixed the driver seat motor assembly, replaced passenger side power mirror, replaced missing blinker markers /bulbs and wiring on bumper, thermostat (modded evo 9), coolant cap modified my design, flushed transmission and refilled with amsoil syncromesh, Transmission was rebuilt before I got it still performs no issues, run only VR1 20w50 high zinc with mitsubishi oem oil filters, I am looking at getting the AEM Failsafe PSI/AFR gauge it runs 320 alone.

I just dropped a grand into the suspension LOL and that was the half price version installing it myself, still getting ground control later because I don't like how low it sits now.

Did I mention that I did all of this myself except the head gasket which was done by a shop that will never touch my car again because of all the stuff I had to fix once I got it back.. I would have done that too, I just don't like working in the yard while there is snow on the ground. The DSM is not my DD, maybe I will DD it again at some point but its not perfect so in no rush.

If this car ever gets totaled I probably wont want to put this much work into another DSM. I will get a stock EVO X or a BMW and put a drop in K&N on it and a K&N sticker you know for that +5hp. Then if I get totaled in an insurance situation I wont lost my mind over the work I put into the damn car without ever getting compensation.

That's the rough reality. Your next dsm will be much easier because of all the extra spare parts
 
That's the rough reality. Your next dsm will be much easier because of all the extra spare parts

I don't think there will be a next dsm. They need so much time, thats the biggest issue I have with mine. I have to work, keep up on the house and hobbys take a back seat to making sure everything else is done. It sucks that I dont even know any shops I would trust with one of these cars let alone even if you find one shop prices tend to be ridiculous.

One of my best friends has been though 9 of them and while he finally has his 2gb gsx he always wanted its stock and needs money into it for parts. he now has kids to worry about. so it will probably not get much attention other than maintenance and running stock.
 
^^^^ This. It just took me 2 weeks to get the GSX back on it's feet again after the drivetrain had a meltdown.. 2 years ago? that would of taken maybe 2 days.
 
I don't think there will be a next dsm. They need so much time, thats the biggest issue I have with mine. I have to work, keep up on the house and hobbys take a back seat to making sure everything else is done. It sucks that I dont even know any shops I would trust with one of these cars let alone even if you find one shop prices tend to be ridiculous.

One of my best friends has been though 9 of them and while he finally has his 2gb gsx he always wanted its stock and needs money into it for parts. he now has kids to worry about. so it will probably not get much attention other than maintenance and running stock.

That's why mine will always be stock. It's a very reliable and peppy daily driver.

Which is why I was trying to talk you out of modifying it.

I've eaten about 3 turd sandwich dsm's before I got my 96 gst 1 owner no modifications perfect car. It's always the modified ones that are the biggest traps
 
Update:
Got Link V3, 14b turbo, Evo8 Fuel injectors and some other goodies ready to go on when I get the time :boring:. DD Lancer got hit so waiting on insurance to deal with that.
Installed a 3" ss turbo back STM exhaust and the AFR sensor.

That exhaust really woke the car up, its noticeably quicker and sounds deep, much better. Its really full of bass and sounds amazing I would recommend the STM turbo back 3" to anyone, after a couple days the carbon deposits calmed the sound down and its perfect for street use. Daily driving the 2g ugh.

Changed the brake rotors back to stock that was an upgrade, and found both of my front axels need to be tossed into the bin and have new ones on the way and the front drivers side carrier bearing (intermediate axle bearing) or whatever bearing is shot so picked one of those up too. I would not be driving this car but I have to at the moment.

Also picked up a 1g awd talon like I needed more projects or something. That beast is going back completely stock, but that's for later.
 
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