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Need help analysing Bottom End Tear down

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rconlon67

15+ Year Contributor
105
0
Dec 13, 2006
Yardley, Pennsylvania
Hey guy,
This is my largest project to date. first off my car info is in my profile. Well long story short, Hit a huge(I MEAN HUGE) pot hole, car stopped running smooth, I didn't knwo what was wrong(thought maybe a plug wire came loose or something), tried to make it that last mile to my house but the car got worse and worse and finally died and wouldnt start.

Anyways, I got a new car and the talon turned into a project car only. So yesterday I finshed taking apart the bottom end. Well, I was not suprised to find a few things wrong. I have never been this far into an engine before, so I am hoping you guys can give me some help determining what went wrong here.
I got the oil pan off and saw this:
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb254/rconlon67/DSC_0025.jpg
closer insepction:
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb254/rconlon67/DSC_0027.jpg
and then I looked and saw this:
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb254/rconlon67/DSC_0026.jpg
So I kept going:
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb254/rconlon67/DSC_0035.jpg
and going:
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb254/rconlon67/DSC_0043.jpg
some more:
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb254/rconlon67/DSC_0053.jpg
finally:
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb254/rconlon67/DSC_0062.jpg

So I am guessing something happend to the middle main bearing?

Well my plans are to go to a machine shop and get it hotanked, decked, and not sure what else needs done, then purchase a stroker kit and start to rebuild, but I would like to know what went wrong here and how everyone thinks everything looks.
Is there anything that I might need to look into farther?
I can get up close pics of anything, by bro has a nikon D40 and like to take lots of pics. I just wasn't sure what all would be needed for online diagnosis!

Thanks for any help and time!

~Ryan
 
The pictures are good, but it's difficult to see what those pieces are from exactly. The crank journals don't look to bad, are there any gouge marks, or parts rough to the touch? You should have the crank mic'd and see if it is in within spec, it may just need to be micropolished. Whatever you do, do not used a turned crank.

Just plan on having the engine taken out .20 over, and reassemble with new TopLine .20 over pistons. Make sure the machine work is done properly, and don't cheap out on the gasket set or any other crucial parts (ACL bearings or Clevite 77s are great, and plan on picking up a full gasket set from Mitsubishi, though more expensive, the gaskets are alot better quality than that from Advance, NAPA, ect).
 
The pictures are good, but it's difficult to see what those pieces are from exactly. The crank journals don't look to bad, are there any gouge marks, or parts rough to the touch? You should have the crank mic'd and see if it is in within spec, it may just need to be micropolished. Whatever you do, do not used a turned crank.

Just plan on having the engine taken out .20 over, and reassemble with new TopLine .20 over pistons. Make sure the machine work is done properly, and don't cheap out on the gasket set or any other crucial parts (ACL bearings or Clevite 77s are great, and plan on picking up a full gasket set from Mitsubishi, though more expensive, the gaskets are alot better quality than that from Advance, NAPA, ect).

for the crank, none of the journals(right terminology for the part that sits in the bearing?) are rough to the touch.

when you say "make sure the machine work is done properly", what do you mean by that?

I plan on going through mitsu for a full gasket kit, thanks for the advice!
 
for the crank, none of the journals(right terminology for the part that sits in the bearing?) are rough to the touch.

when you say "make sure the machine work is done properly", what do you mean by that?

I plan on going through mitsu for a full gasket kit, thanks for the advice!

Some machine shops are full of backwoods rednecks who for some reason, can't seem to make a straight bore on a 4G63, nor can they set proper piston to wall clearances. Make sure you use a reputable shop,is basicly what I'm saying.

Yes, the surfaces on the crank which touch the bearings are the journals. They must be in good condition and not gouged or scratched. The journals will need to be checked with a micrometer to insure they are within specifications, both in size and roundness.

The full gasket kit from Mitsubishi is MD974636. It lists for 259.80. I have connections with the dealer, and can get them to you shipped for 220.00. If your interested shoot me a PM.
 
A spun main would cause alot more of a mess than what your seeing. The pictures it almost looks like right parts from the casting. As for the larger pieces, they could have come from anywhere. Unless there is a serious gouge in the bearings, then thats not the problem. Was there anything floating around up in the head?
 
A spun main would cause alot more of a mess than what your seeing. The pictures it almost looks like right parts from the casting. As for the larger pieces, they could have come from anywhere. Unless there is a serious gouge in the bearings, then thats not the problem. Was there anything floating around up in the head?

By floating around in the head you mean under the valve cover and on top of the valves, springs, lifters ect....? then no, I didn't see anything, I wil double check, I just took it off, and set it straight down, so if anything was in it, it will still be there.

the chunks do look like they might be form somehting cast, but I am not an expert. If so What might they be?

Thanks again,
~Ryan
 
Wow. You will need to have the crank checked for straighness. I wonder if it wouldn't be more worthwhile to start with a different block. You will want to have everything checked over very carefully. If you can get oversized bearings you may need to have the mains honed. It's irregular that only one bearing is screwed.

-Michael
 
Check your turbo. My son's engine had the same type of brass colored pieces in his oil pan when I tore it down. I showed it to two people at the machine shop and they said it was not from the engine but didn't know what it was. I did some checking and determined it was a brass bearing from inside a turbo. The Big16 turbo on his car was fine so it probably was from the stock turbo that blew sometime before he bought it.

Mike
 
That would make more sence. Unless the thrust bearings in a DSM are brass. Ive never taken them out, so I dont know. Its a logical answer though.
 
Check your turbo. My son's engine had the same type of brass colored pieces in his oil pan when I tore it down. I showed it to two people at the machine shop and they said it was not from the engine but didn't know what it was. I did some checking and determined it was a brass C-clip from inside a turbo. The Big16 turbo on his car was fine so it probably was from the stock turbo that blew sometime before he bought it.

Mike

Conlon,

This sounds like it could have pertained to that used 16g that you picked up and had crap out on you after a short period of time. Then you put the "current" new one on. I say we check out the current turbo to see if there are any issues with it then also inspect the blown old one (assuming you still have it somewhere).

PS. Did you call Pittsburgh Crankshaft yet?:beatentodeath:
 
Wow. You will need to have the crank checked for straighness. I wonder if it wouldn't be more worthwhile to start with a different block. You will want to have everything checked over very carefully. If you can get oversized bearings you may need to have the mains honed. It's irregular that only one bearing is screwed.

-Michael

I agree that seems wierd, but I have no other experience in tearing down bottom ends so I don't know if this is normal or not.
Anyone else confirm this is abnormal or is it common for one bearing to fail?
I was planning on a new crankshaft and bearings, but I don't want to put new parts into a block that is not sound. you note to "have things checked over very carefully".
What all would you have checked?

thanks for the insight and info!

~Ryan
 
Conlon,

This sounds like it could have pertained to that used 16g that you picked up and had crap out on you after a short period of time. Then you put the "current" new one on. I say we check out the current turbo to see if there are any issues with it then also inspect the blown old one (assuming you still have it somewhere).

PS. Did you call Pittsburgh Crankshaft yet?:beatentodeath:

JD,
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I will add inspecting my current turbo farther to my to do list, but I am fairly certain I gave it a quick one over and I don't remember anything looking too terrible. definitially could be that old one, have to take a look over whats left of it.
No I did not call Pitt.CS casue ya know I worked uhh from 5:30 AM till 9:30 PM yesterday....gotta figure out if block is good now...
 
Check your turbo. My son's engine had the same type of brass colored pieces in his oil pan when I tore it down. I showed it to two people at the machine shop and they said it was not from the engine but didn't know what it was. I did some checking and determined it was a brass C-clip from inside a turbo. The Big16 turbo on his car was fine so it probably was from the stock turbo that blew sometime before he bought it.

Mike

I have a blow turbo that bew a while ago...
Can you(or anyone) explain what I would be looking for in a disassembly that would account for those large chunks?

thanks,
Ryan
 
I have a blow turbo that bew a while ago...
Can you(or anyone) explain what I would be looking for in a disassembly that would account for those large chunks?

thanks,
Ryan

http://www.vfaq.com/mods/Turbo-rebuild.html

Scroll about halfway down and look for the picture of the brass thrust bearing. I believe that is the part that broke apart and some pieces of it made its way into our oil pans.

Another reason I think the pieces I found in the oil pan were from the turbo is finding a small, complete metal c-clip along with the brass pieces. Scroll down a little further to the picture showing all the replacement parts of the rebuild kit. See the yellowed bag containing 2 small c-clips? That is exactly what I found.

Mike
 
http://www.vfaq.com/mods/Turbo-rebuild.html

Scroll about halfway down and look for the picture of the brass thrust bearing. I believe that is the part that broke apart and some pieces of it made its way into our oil pans.

Another reason I think the pieces I found in the oil pan were from the turbo is finding a small, complete metal c-clip along with the brass pieces. Scroll down a little further to the picture showing all the replacement parts of the rebuild kit. See the yellowed bag containing 2 small c-clips? That is exactly what I found.

Mike


WOW,
the brass metal pieces very much resemble that thrust bearing. the pieces even have the holes that are drilled in the bearing still visible.....hmmm I definitally will do some closer inspection ofthe pieces, and my old blown turbo...
thanks for the info I will inspect tonight and post with what I find.

Assuming these might be from an old blown turbo, then they have been flaoting around in the bottom of my engine for a long time! what type of problems might this have caused, what are some things I would want to checkout?

Thanks,
Ryan
 
WOW,
the brass metal pieces very much resemble that thrust bearing. the pieces even have the holes that are drilled in the bearing still visible.....hmmm I definitally will do some closer inspection ofthe pieces, and my old blown turbo...
thanks for the info I will inspect tonight and post with what I find.

Assuming these might be from an old blown turbo, then they have been flaoting around in the bottom of my engine for a long time! what type of problems might this have caused, what are some things I would want to checkout?

Thanks,
Ryan

From what I could tell from your pictures, it didn't look like it caused any serious damage. The bigger pieces would have never made it through the oil pickup screen. If a piece was small enough and made its way throughout the engine, it may have scored/scratched crank and rod bearing surfaces, cylinder walls, and/or cam surfaces. Your bottom end doesn't look bad, at least from what I can see from the pictures. As long as it is off, I would recommend checking the cam and its bearing surfaces and rebuilding the head. Have the block, crank, oil pan, pistons and head hot tanked to get rid of any lingering metal shavings. If you have no serious scoring of piston walls, crank or rod journals, make sure everything is in spec, hone the cylinder walls, polish the crank journals and rebuild with new parts.

Mike
 
Having things checked very carefully... Disassemble the oil pump to make sure pieces did not go through it and damage the gears. I would open the oil filter if you still have it to see what amount of debris went that far into the engine. Have all the oil passages cleaned as well. The crank needs to be checked for straightness and the mains should also be checked. Honing them wouldn't be a bad idea.

-Michael
 
Conlon,

Looks like you got some good info here. Did you happen to check that out at all over the weekend (like on your beat Saturday night?) If not, Sunday through Tuesday of this coming week I will be at your beck and call to work on the beast (and mine LOL so let me know so I can plan accordingly! Gotta get this project movin'!
 
Yes,
I inspected the head and there are no pieces of anything...looks clean as can be...
.....Looked @ my old turbo...SUPRISE! the Thrust bearing is MIA.....so....I am going to assume that is what those pieces are.

I THINK the block is ready to go to the shop....I have read conflicting reports about the oil squirters. do they need to come out before they go to the shop?

If I plan on forged internals, should I just get them plugged?

Can anyone give me a quick Pre-Machine shop checklist?

Thanks in advance,
Ryan
 
Ryno's head and block are at the machine shop gettin' a lookover. Hopefully there will be more info to pass along (good info - like the head/block are rebuildable) :)
 
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