NA vs TT

[Molfire35]

Ok so I'm learning a bit about how turbos work and I'm starting to get my checklist and funding in order for future mods. Question is not so much for actual mod in the future, but for education purposes. What is the benefit difference between TT or a NA on the 4G63T? Turbo/supercharge combo, or just a single larger turbo? I've heard cost for the setup is much cheaper on the TT vs NA, but I wanna hear everyone's opinion on here. Thanks

 

[Pwrtrip75]

Usually twins costs double.... 2 turbos, 2 wastegates, as in benefit from naturally aspirated to boosted? You need to ride in a boosted car... you'll never look back.

But turbo, you can keep it 100% stock sounding and drivable have power when you want it... I call it the real "displacement on demand".

 

[Molfire35]

That is one thing I am seeing that is a huge benefit to turbo vs NA is that with NA the power is all the time consantly eating up gas vs Turbo where it functions better with daily driving and giving power only when needed. Adding boost is in the near future. Funds are coming in soon and I'm looking foward to how everything feels, but for now it's still just research, research, research.

 

[GSXSixteenG]

What do you think NA means? I have a feeling you don't have it straight. Or just worded it all weird.

 

[Molfire35]

^^^Naturally Aspirated

 

[91stocker]

N/A 4cylinder can not make any power. You will struggle to make stock turbo at stock boost numbers n/a. Thats not even a comparison especially when talking about dsm's.

Isnt the gst sypder factory turbo anyway? You can bolt on a 400+whp turbo, how much more power do you want in a fwd?

 

[Rockyp]

A TT was tried years ago, but failed miserably. I'm pretty sure they did it on a 4G64 block. The closest that I've heard of is a twin engined talon. That has two turbos on it. One in the hood and one in the trunk. You wouldn't want a N/A 4G63. Otherwise the 20+ years of experiments on DSMs were all for nothing. The point of a turbo is to get the "replacement for displacement" that our wonderful Mustang counterparts speak of. Try blowing off an intercooler pipe and see how awesome that is.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Ok so I'm learning a bit about how turbos work and I'm starting to get my checklist and funding in order for future mods. Question is not so much for actual mod in the future, but for education purposes. What is the benefit difference between TT or a NA on the 4G63T? Turbo/supercharge combo, or just a single larger turbo? I've heard cost for the setup is much cheaper on the TT vs NA, but I wanna hear everyone's opinion on here. Thanks

Reading that gave me a headache. Try again?

You seem to be confusing the terminology.

TT is twin turbo, as in two symmetrical turbochargers.

NA is naturally aspirated, as in no turbo or supercharger. Just using atmospheric pressure.

Turbocharger plumbed into a Supercharger is referred to as twincharging and in addition to being a real pain in the dick to tune, is typically quite inefficient as well as very expensive.

Sequential turbocharging is where you have two turbochargers but only one is providing boost at a time, typically using a small turbo for low rpm response and midrange. Then at a specified point it hands off duty to the bigger turbo and gets bypassed.

Compound Turbocharging is where on the intake side a large turbocharger's compressor discharge is feeding into a small turbochargers compressor inlet. On the exhaust side the small turbine gets exhaust first, and then the small turbine's discharge and wastegate are plumbed into the larger turbine.

 

[That1Talon]

N/A 4cylinder can not make any power.You will struggle to make stock turbo at stock boost numbers n/a. Thats not even a comparison especially when talking about dsm's.

Isnt the gst sypder factory turbo anyway? You can bolt on a 400+whp turbo, how much more power do you want in a fwd?

Not true at all it will just take more money to make any where near what a turbo can do. It all depends on what you want. For instance i have a 420a and yes i wanna go turbo its a no brainer when it comes to hp gains for the amount of money you spend.

 

[knochgoon24]

You do know that DSMs (Eclipses, Lasers, Talons) only have 1 turbo (if they're turbocharged), right?

NA = Naturally Aspirated. No turbos. No superchargers.
FI = Forced Induction. This covers any form of creating positive pressure.
TT = Twin Turbo.
N/T = Non-Turbo = NA.

Twin charging, with either a compound turbo or a turbo/supercharger combo, is great for achieving higher pressures, quicker spool than a larger single, and decreased intake temps.

You question makes you seem really confused.

A TT was tried years ago, but failed miserably. I'm pretty sure they did it on a 4G64 block. The closest that I've heard of is a twin engined talon. That has two turbos on it. One in the hood and one in the trunk. You wouldn't want a N/A 4G63. Otherwise the 20+ years of experiments on DSMs were all for nothing. The point of a turbo is to get the "replacement for displacement" that our wonderful Mustang counterparts speak of. Try blowing off an intercooler pipe and see how awesome that is.

What?

Are you confusing twin turbo with the compound turbo setup Paul (99GSTracer) did? I depends on your criterion for failure. He's building a second setup. Not that the clutch that could hold the torque before.

And N/A 4g63 1gs make great DD's. Some high compression pistons and a good tune can make them decently quick.

 

[91stocker]

Not true at all it will just take more money to make any where near what a turbo can do. It all depends on what you want. For instance i have a 420a and yes i wanna go turbo its a no brainer when it comes to hp gains for the amount of money you spend.

O its not true eh. Then why is the record n/a 420a around 215whp? Fully built engine with itb's, etc, etc. Thousands into the engine alone, only to make what a untuned stock turbo and a mbc make.

N/A 4 cylinders do not make power. This isnt like the v8 guys where they can make 800hp n/a or turbo. You want over 250hp you have to go turbo.

A true tt set up on a 4cyl would be worthless. What turbo are you going to spool up with 2cyl?

 

[Molfire35]

N/A 4cylinder can not make any power. You will struggle to make stock turbo at stock boost numbers n/a. Thats not even a comparison especially when talking about dsm's.

Isnt the gst sypder factory turbo anyway? You can bolt on a 400+whp turbo, how much more power do you want in a fwd?

Yes the GST Spyder is stock turbo. I was asking, as I said before, more for curiosity's sake than for a planned mod. And yes, 400whp is a TON of power for a fwd. I'm not sure yet what I really want my end goal for HP to be since this car is about to most likely become a weekend only car once I move to CA and can get back on my CBR600 daily.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Not true at all it will just take more money to make any where near what a turbo can do. It all depends on what you want. For instance i have a 420a and yes i wanna go turbo its a no brainer when it comes to hp gains for the amount of money you spend.

Not true at all, huh? I want what you are smoking.

"to make anywhere near what a turbo can do"

What does that even mean? That doesn't account for the fact that all turbos will behave differently. How are you going to make GT40R power with an NA build?

You won't.

The only way to make power is to cram more oxygen into the engine. The only way to do that with a fixed displacement is to increase the density of the charge or increase the redline.

Only one of those is really very practical. The parasitic losses and wear put on the motor with excessive rpm makes for a waste of time, effort and money for a car you have to DD.

You have to sacrifice flow down low and rev the piss out of it to make power NA. Even with all the variable valve timing trickery in the world there is really no comparison.

VE will have to shift to the right if you hope to make any power, so say bye bye to any midrange or low end.

A 300whp 2.0 turbo can have well north of 300wtq. You would be lucky to see 250wtq with that on an NA motor.

How are you going to make 600whp on an NA 2.0L without approaching F1 redlines?

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

I've heard cost for the setup is much cheaper on the TT vs NA,

I'm still confused how is the cost setup cheaper on a TT compared to a n/a?

What are you even talking about? If you are going for cheap, you bought the wrong car.

I genuinely believe you have no idea what you are attempting to discuss. Please clarify what it is you are asking and the terms and abbreviations you are using.

 

[Molfire35]

You do know that DSMs (Eclipses, Lasers, Talons) only have 1 turbo (if they're turbocharged), right?

NA = Naturally Aspirated. No turbos. No superchargers.
FI = Forced Induction. This covers any form of creating positive pressure.
TT = Twin Turbo.
N/T = Non-Turbo = NA.

Twin charging, with either a compound turbo or a turbo/supercharger combo, is great for achieving higher pressures, quicker spool than a larger single, and decreased intake temps.

You question makes you seem really confused.

I apologize for lack of clarity in original post, but my question was what are the pro's and con's of each option. Does that make better sense? Yes I do know that DSMs can come with 1 turbo. I know what the different terminology means, but I just don't understand what the benefit to a NA would be over a charged engine. Does that help clarify?

 

[91stocker]

Yes the GST Spyder is stock turbo. I was asking, as I said before, more for curiosity's sake than for a planned mod. And yes, 400whp is a TON of power for a fwd. I'm not sure yet what I really want my end goal for HP to be since this car is about to most likely become a weekend only car once I move to CA and can get back on my CBR600 daily.

I would just follow the basic upgrade path. Start with a tuner like link, etc. Then upgrade your fuel system. That should max the factory turbo, after that you will have a better idea of what power goal your wanting and can decide what turbo to upgrade to.

 

[91stocker]

I just don't understand what the benefit to a NA would be over a charged engine. Does that help clarify?

The only benefit would be that your tires will last longer . But really you will be severely limiting your car by trying a n/a build. Records are around 200whp.

 

[Molfire35]

What are you even talking about? If you are going for cheap, you bought the wrong car.

I genuinely believe you have no idea what you are attempting to discuss. Please clarify what it is you are asking and the terms and abbreviations you are using.

Didn't say cheap. Just less expensive. Again, SORRY for the lack of clarification. Ok, abbreviations I've used, NA = Naturally Aspirated, TT = Twin Turbo. That's the only abbreviations I've used.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

The only benefit would be that your tires will last longer . But really you will be severely limiting your car by trying a n/a build. Records are around 200whp.

Thats a lot of time and money to make around what the car will do stock with the boost turned up a couple pounds.

Years back on a stock GST with only an S-AFC, 550s and MBC the car put down 249whp/258wtq @ 16psi on a cold day.

 

[Molfire35]

I would just follow the basic upgrade path. Start with a tuner like link, etc. Then upgrade your fuel system. That should max the factory turbo, after that you will have a better idea of what power goal your wanting and can decide what turbo to upgrade to.

That's my plan, but as I said before, I was asking out of curiosity's sake about what the possibilities are performance wise.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Didn't say cheap. Just less expensive. Again, SORRY for the lack of clarification. Ok, abbreviations I've used, NA = Naturally Aspirated, TT = Twin Turbo. That's the only abbreviations I've used.

I think the thing throwing me and others for a loop is why you are completely writing off the stock turbo.

Why in the world would you want to convert to NA? And why would you even try to compare that to a TT which is an unorthodox setup for an inline 4cyl engine?

What are you contemplating for a TT setup that you could spool with only 1 liter per turbo? A couple GT22s?

To try and compare NA and TT is like apples and LSD.

NA is just that, the engine, intake manifold and exhaust.

Twin turbo is going to require two turbos, wastegates, two sets of oil feeds and returns, potentially two sets of coolant lines and easily several thousand dollars in intercooler and exhaust piping. As well as a manifold that can mount two turbos and split the appropriate cylinders, then join back together after the down pipe(s) for either a big single exhaust, or two exhaust systems.

Then there will be two UEGO sensors needed, etc.

There is really no comparison.

 

[Molfire35]

can you explain less expensive? theoretically are you talkin about building a built n/a and with the TT what is the starting point a turbo or non turbo motor?

I'm talking about an already turbo motor so I'm assuming it would be cheaper/easier to set up a TT vs a Naturally Aspirated and would achieve more power. Again, this is all theoretical

 

[That1Talon]

I think the issue is there are too many variables not accounted for here.

Obviously turbo vs n/a is no question to who can make more power. Whats the reason for asking about TT?

Cheaper and easier to go with one big turbo.

 

[Molfire35]

I think the thing throwing me and others for a loop is why you are completely writing off the stock turbo.

Why in the world would you want to convert to NA? And why would you even try to compare that to a TT which is an unorthodox setup for an inline 4cyl engine?

What are you contemplating for a TT setup that you could spool with only 1 liter per turbo? A couple GT22s?

To try and compare NA and TT is like apples and LSD.

Haha alright apples and LSD got it. I'm not throwing out the stock turbo. This isn't an actually planned mod. I was just trying to figure out what the advantage/disadvantage would be to either option of gaining better performance. I know NA is a big thing in the muscle car world and exotics (i.e. Ferrari) so I was trying to figure out if there is any advantage to doing this with the DSM or if it's strictly applicable to larger engines (i.e. V8/10)

I think the issue is there are too many variables not accounted for here.

Obviously turbo vs n/a is no question to who can make more power. Whats the reason for asking about TT?

Cheaper and easier to go with one big turbo.

Got it, but IS there an advantage to going TT with a DSM? Is it even a feasable mod that would gain a significant amount of HP?

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Haha alright apples and LSD got it. I'm not throwing out the stock turbo. This isn't an actually planned mod. I was just trying to figure out what the advantage/disadvantage would be to either option of gaining better performance. I know NA is a big thing in the muscle car world and exotics (i.e. Ferrari) so I was trying to figure out if there is any advantage to doing this with the DSM or if it's strictly applicable to larger engines (i.e. V8/10)



Got it, but IS there an advantage to going TT with a DSM? Is it even a feasable mod that would gain a significant amount of HP?

Your questions are way too vague to provide an answer. It looks like you have a good bit of research ahead.

There are so many variables involved that this boils down to a waste of time. You need to define some parameters.

In the vast majority of cases it is a waste of time and money to throw two turbos on a small displacement inline 4 cylinder engine.

There is no advantage in reverting to NA on a 2.0L in terms of power production. In fact quite the opposite.

Nor is there any advantage for a random street DSM to add a whole other symmetrical turbo system into the equation. Most people have difficulty tuning and maintaining one.

Again, I don't think you fully grasp what you are attempting to discuss.

Nail down some details and go from there.