N2O + Intercooler

[shaneyeend]

So how well do u think a 6" tall bye 26" wide bye 3" thick intercooler would do with the
NX N-tercooler, in comparisson to a 12" tall 23" wide 3" thick intercooler? what setup would be better the small IC with the N2O cooling it, or just the bigger IC?

 

[pianoman]

you might wanna look at this thread first.

http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152265

 

[shaneyeend]

so that seemed like a 50/50 argument, not sure who to believe, but they did say it wouldn't help if you have a good intercooler, but i already have the shorter IC, and i'm not real sure how great it is, i'm not thinking it will properly condense the air, so i was wondering if the N20 will make it more able to condense it. In that thread they said that the N2O going in to the engine is bad because there isn't enough fuel, the funny thing is that 80% of our "air" is N2O. but yeah i guess i would buy a new IC, but that would cause me to have to buy new pipes, and to remove that bumper "not the cover" and that is dumb, because where i live there are more drunk drivers then the total population. My front end has been hit 3 times already, not going to take those riskes. so does the N2O cooller suck?

 

[dustyb]

don't waste your n2o by using it in the intercooler, you'll probably gain more HP by just making a wet nitrous kit for your car.

 

[Blue92]

You gotta look at flow numbers before you go and get an intercooler. If you want the best performance get one that flows just above your turbo. That way you will not have the added lag of having to fill that monster core with a tiny turbo. I use an IC sprayer and I like it. Waste, I got mine for 350 shipped w/10lb bottle. That is cheap. Then you can always convert it to a wet kit if you want. I would get the IC that flows closest to your turbo and spray it if you want.

 

[99gst_racer]

don't waste your n2o by using it in the intercooler, you'll probably gain more HP by just making a wet nitrous kit for your car.

Of course a wet kt will gain more HP. But a wet kit is not always an option for everyone. They are more expensive that the N-tercooler and they can potentially damage the motor if not used properly. The N-tercooler, however, is a safe and cheaper HP gain. If intercooler sprayers didnt work, then EVO 8's and STi's wouldnt come factory with them..... Let's break this down here. The colder the air is going into the motor, the more dense it is. The more dense it is, the more you can fit into each cylinder. More air = more potential for HP. The N-tercooler kits are proven to lower the ait inlet charge, which make the air more dense.

Use the N-tercooler.

 

[dustyb]

Of course a wet kt will gain more HP. But a wet kit is not always an option for everyone. They are more expensive that the N-tercooler and they can potentially damage the motor if not used properly. The N-tercooler, however, is a safe and cheaper HP gain. If intercooler sprayers didnt work, then EVO 8's and STi's wouldnt come factory with them..... Let's break this down here. The colder the air is going into the motor, the more dense it is. The more dense it is, the more you can fit into each cylinder. More air = more potential for HP. The N-tercooler kits are proven to lower the ait inlet charge, which make the air more dense.

look where he lives, laramie isn't exactly the warmest place in the united states. i could understand using a bottle of nitrous on warmer days where the air is hot, where you have dense air (lower altitude), but an intercooler that flows just above the turbo would probably turn better numbers than an n-tercooler kit and be cheaper in the long run because EVO 8's and STi's, even tho come with a nitrous cooling intercooler, are 30 thousand dollar cars, and IMO the STi intercooler is kinda crappy mounted right above the engine.

if you know what you're doing, a 50 shot is going to be more effective i'd have to say than the n-tercooler kit, especially where you live.

 

[anconover]

Get a proper sized intercooler and forget about the intercooler cooler kits. They may do something on back to back runs, and extremely hott days, but honestly IMO not worth the small gain for the price for most. And since when did the STi and EVO come with intercooler sprayers using nitrous? They are WATER intercooler sprayers. Youd gain alot more from a small wet shot of nitrous.

 

[shaneyeend]

i guess i should have posted that im running a 75 shot on top of maybe the N2O sprayer, yeah it does get cold but not really cold enough during the summer, that would be the only time i run, and although i will have the N2O i use it rarely, i'm going to school at the moment and i have some friends that think there pretty much stock cars are pimp, and always want to run, so I want the sprayer because i'm not going to shooting Nitruos everytime my friend or some tec'er wants to race. (the wyoming tecnical institute is here) and yeah theres alote of "tec'ers" that like to race and act like there badass. so i'm a conseded(sp) person that likes to put them in there place, but i don't have a huge IC and have never really checked my intake temp, i was just guessing that because the IC isn't very big that its not really condensing the air to much.

 

[Jehu]

In that thread they said that the N2O going in to the engine is bad because there isn't enough fuel, the funny thing is that 80% of our "air" is N2O.

78% of our air is NITROGEN. Nitrous oxide or N2O, i.e. two molecules of nitrogen to one molecule of oxygen, is NOT something you want to be breathing too much of. By mass, N2O will be about 33% of oxygen when it dissociates in the combustion chamber. Air, in comparison has 20% Oxygen. Your airflow meter cannot tell the difference between air and N2O, so if 20% of your intake air is N2O, you could potential bump your effective a/f ratio from a safe 11.5:1 to a risky 13:1, on pump anyway.

 

[DSMJim]

78% of our air is NITROGEN. Nitrous oxide or N2O, i.e. two molecules of nitrogen to one molecule of oxygen, is NOT something you want to be breathing too much of. By mass, N2O will be about 33% of oxygen when it dissociates in the combustion chamber. Air, in comparison has 20% Oxygen. Your airflow meter cannot tell the difference between air and N2O, so if 20% of your intake air is N2O, you could potential bump your effective a/f ratio from a safe 11.5:1 to a risky 13:1, on pump anyway.

Not exactly. A stock turbo car runs 12.0:1 at WOT and a stock N/A car runs around 13.0:1 at WOT. When you spray because it is adding a lot of cylinder pressure you must ensure that your controlling your spark point. If you make the car to lean like even 12.0:1 on nitrous and the mixture starts on it own (pre-ignition or detonation whichever) far too long before top dead center you end up putting holes in pistons and snapping rods. When it's lean it makes the internal engine parts much hotter after every power stroke so the next firing event it's more likely than the last to detonate. If your car is detonating on nitrous it's a very uncontrolled violent burning of the mixture while the piston is still traveling up. It builds a lot of pressure very quickly all at the same time the pistons is still trying to travel up, the explosion is going out. As you can see this is not going to be easy on engine parts.

Running a richer air fuel ratios into the 11's on nitrous is much safer because it runs cooler (kinda like putting cooler plugs into the car) to stop hot spots from forming plus the presence of more fuel gives you better protection from pre-ignition. Honestly the optimal AFR for a nitrous car is 11.0:1.

 

[GSGoinFast]

78% of our air is NITROGEN. Nitrous oxide or N2O, i.e. two molecules of nitrogen to one molecule of oxygen, is NOT something you want to be breathing too much of. By mass, N2O will be about 33% of oxygen when it dissociates in the combustion chamber. Air, in comparison has 20% Oxygen. Your airflow meter cannot tell the difference between air and N2O, so if 20% of your intake air is N2O, you could potential bump your effective a/f ratio from a safe 11.5:1 to a risky 13:1, on pump anyway.

first off, we dont have airflow meters, we have MAP sensors(hes a 2gnt). the MAP sensor can see the pressure in the intake manifold go up. but if you have a wet kit, the proper amount of fuel is added, so your a/f ratio should be fine.

DSMJim, im sending you a PM, im having some problems with my nitrous kit. thanks

 

[Jehu]

Nope, the MAP won't see a difference. This is nitrous dispersed in ambient air, why would it be at any higher pressures? Remember the original discussions i.e. nitrous injection via ingestion of cooling nitrous used in intercooler sprayers.

Jim, yes, the specific AF of running nitrous is different due to the fact that there is much less inert nitrogen to buffer the combustion process, leading to much higher combustion temperatures. But remember we're talking about a slight dilution via nitrous here. The oxygen component is more heavily affected mass wise relative to the nitrogen component. The relative increase in the mass of oxygen will be 13% from a 20% n2o/air mixture, while the change in the nitrogen mass is only ~4%. So in effect the A/F ratio change here is closer to running a lean mixture than actual nitrous spraying, but ofcourse the reduction in available inerting gas will only compound the effect.

Which brings us back to the point...if you are unknowningly/knowingly putting nitrous into the engine w/o adding fuel, it's bad.

 

[GSGoinFast]

Nope, the MAP won't see a difference. This is nitrous dispersed in ambient air, why would it be at any higher pressures? Remember the original discussions i.e. nitrous injection via ingestion of cooling nitrous used in intercooler sprayers.

Jim, yes, the specific AF of running nitrous is different due to the fact that there is much less inert nitrogen to buffer the combustion process, leading to much higher combustion temperatures. But remember we're talking about a slight dilution via nitrous here. The oxygen component is more heavily affected mass wise relative to the nitrogen component. The relative increase in the mass of oxygen will be 13% from a 20% n2o/air mixture, while the change in the nitrogen mass is only ~4%. So in effect the A/F ratio change here is closer to running a lean mixture than actual nitrous spraying, but ofcourse the reduction in available inerting gas will only compound the effect.

Which brings us back to the point...if you are unknowningly/knowingly putting nitrous into the engine w/o adding fuel, it's bad.

ya your right, thanks for correcting me on something ive seen first hand. the nitrous cools the air temedously, which makes it more dense. i watched my S-AFC manifold pressure reading jump up when i initiated the nitrous.

 

[Jehu]

Look at the 3rd post, then look at the quote in my post, then look at my first post, it's regarding power gains from a nitrous intercooler sprayer, in the other thread, and how the poster was wondering why the engine drawing in nitrous from the intercooler sprayer would be bad. It would perhaps have been clearer if I quoted the other thread too. Basically I'm talking not about spraying nitrous in the conventional sense here, it's about nitrous from nitrous IC sprayers getting drawn into the engine. This is definately a more pronounced effect if the car is stationary, i.e. on a dyno. But that's what the manufacturers are using to make their HP claims.

If nitrous is sprayed into the air onto an intercooler, and then subsequently drawn into the engine, your MAP sensor will not detect in kind of pressure increase. Why, because the nitrous is at close to ambient temperature by then.

Of course a wet/dry shot right into the manifold will create an observable effect on the MAP sensor. Duh. But if you're depending on the slight increase in MAP sensor pressure reading to add enough fuel for a dry shot, good luck.

 

[GSGoinFast]

Look at the 3rd post, then look at the quote in my post, then look at my first post, it's regarding power gains from a nitrous intercooler sprayer, in the other thread, and how the poster was wondering why the engine drawing in nitrous from the intercooler sprayer would be bad. It would perhaps have been clearer if I quoted the other thread too. Basically I'm talking not about spraying nitrous in the conventional sense here, it's about nitrous from nitrous IC sprayers getting drawn into the engine. This is definately a more pronounced effect if the car is stationary, i.e. on a dyno. But that's what the manufacturers are using to make their HP claims.

If nitrous is sprayed into the air onto an intercooler, and then subsequently drawn into the engine, your MAP sensor will not detect in kind of pressure increase. Why, because the nitrous is at close to ambient temperature by then.

Of course a wet/dry shot right into the manifold will create an observable effect on the MAP sensor. Duh. But if you're depending on the slight increase in MAP sensor pressure reading to add enough fuel for a dry shot, good luck.

oh ok sorry i misunderstood what you were saying. no i dont think the MAP will give the correct fuel, i was just saying that it would see a difference in the air pressure. and i dunno why anyone would run a dry kit.

 

[Eclipse2216]

I am running the Nter cooler sprayer and love it, I have a wet set up and a dry set-up from previous cars and still chose to spray the intercooler so I wouldn't damage the motor @high boost on the track with stock internals, It really kicks when it freezes up, Feels like a 35 wet shot I had on my H22a civic once. Worth it for the extra power and safety