My first log...what does this tell me?

[Rice Over Wheat]

I highlighted the two pulls. I have not installed my AFPR yet so please ignore the wack fuel trims while idle and cruising. I cannot change my LTFT at idle/cruising until I install the AFPR.

Also, only had 4 samples per sec so kind of short. 2nd gear pulls on a/t. I think without more samples this doesn't tell me anything. Next time I will only use rpm and timing.

Completely untuned on 650s. SAFC settings LO -13% HI -20% across the board.


Time-------------STFT / LTFT / RPM / Timing

11/4/2006 21:08 17 12 888 7
11/4/2006 21:08 17 12 916 9
11/4/2006 21:08 17 12 904 7
11/4/2006 21:08 17 12 904 8
11/4/2006 21:08 17 12 904 8
11/4/2006 21:08 17 12 920 7
11/4/2006 21:08 17 12 916 8
11/4/2006 21:08 17 12 924 9
11/4/2006 21:08 17 12 908 8
11/4/2006 21:08 17 12 916 7
11/4/2006 21:08 17 12 920 8
11/4/2006 21:08 17 12 928 9
11/4/2006 21:08 17 12 924 7
11/4/2006 21:08 17 12 916 7
11/4/2006 21:08 17 12 916 9
11/4/2006 21:08 17 12 1756 25
11/4/2006 21:08 13 12 1784 26
11/4/2006 21:08 7 12 2208 28
11/4/2006 21:08 1 12 1868 27
11/4/2006 21:08 0 12 1940 27
11/4/2006 21:08 2 12 2088 28
11/4/2006 21:08 1 12 2036 28
11/4/2006 21:08 3 12 2088 29
11/4/2006 21:08 5 12 2192 30
11/4/2006 21:08 6 12 2216 28
11/4/2006 21:08 3 12 2432 28
11/4/2006 21:08 0 12 2656 22
11/4/2006 21:08 -7 12 3184 13
11/4/2006 21:08 0 12 3920 9 -------2nd gear pull…a/t
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 4780 12
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 5580 17
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 6304 21
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 6420 38
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 5896 37
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 5652 36
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 4300 33
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 3556 33
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 2624 31
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 2240 30
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 2544 31
11/4/2006 21:09 2 12 2692 30
11/4/2006 21:09 1 12 2624 32
11/4/2006 21:09 7 12 2652 31
11/4/2006 21:09 3 12 2696 31
11/4/2006 21:09 3 12 2612 31
11/4/2006 21:09 4 12 2508 31
11/4/2006 21:09 5 12 2496 31
11/4/2006 21:09 5 12 2508 33
11/4/2006 21:09 -4 12 2280 31
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 2224 30
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 2708 27
11/4/2006 21:09 1 12 2908 26
11/4/2006 21:09 -4 12 2768 29
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 2368 31
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 2264 31
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 2204 30
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 2144 30
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 2072 29
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 1928 27
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 1676 23
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 1308 15
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 1176 11
11/4/2006 21:09 1 12 1148 15
11/4/2006 21:09 3 12 1032 13
11/4/2006 21:09 5 12 888 7
11/4/2006 21:09 7 12 864 7
11/4/2006 21:09 10 12 904 9
11/4/2006 21:09 12 12 932 7
11/4/2006 21:09 14 12 956 9
11/4/2006 21:09 14 12 1544 26
11/4/2006 21:09 13 12 1228 21
11/4/2006 21:09 12 12 1712 27
11/4/2006 21:09 7 12 2232 27
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 2472 27
11/4/2006 21:09 -3 12 2680 27
11/4/2006 21:09 -3 12 3144 15
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 3788 8----------2nd gear pull…a/t
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 4472 10
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 5132 14
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 5888 18
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 5904 36
11/4/2006 21:09 -4 12 3924 33
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 3712 33
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 2420 32
11/4/2006 21:09 0 12 2348 31
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 2280 31
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 2216 30
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 2044 28
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 1808 25
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 1704 24
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 1492 20
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 1328 17
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 1948 33
11/4/2006 21:10 3 12 1336 16
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 1152 17
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 1208 10
11/4/2006 21:10 2 12 1560 24
11/4/2006 21:10 6 12 1540 22
11/4/2006 21:10 11 12 1388 20
11/4/2006 21:10 17 12 1020 13
11/4/2006 21:10 17 12 1408 26
11/4/2006 21:10 14 12 2156 26
11/4/2006 21:10 7 12 2792 21
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 3456 10
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 4008 11
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 4376 20
11/4/2006 21:10 -1 12 3552 18
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 3168 26
11/4/2006 21:10 -3 12 2660 29
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 2680 29
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 2196 30
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 2104 29
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 2048 29
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 1988 28
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 1968 28
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 1940 27
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 1916 27
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 1892 27
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 1868 26
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 1844 26
11/4/2006 21:10 0 12 1824 26

 

[spyderturbo007]

If I'm reading this log correctly, you were cruising around and then made a pull, then continued to cruise around and made another pull......???

If that is the case, the 2 pulls look OK, but like you said there aren't enough data points.

What logging software are you using?

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

I'm using OBDGauge on PalmIIIxe since it can sync logs to PC using usb. For some reason, I can't get more than 4 samples a second no matter if I have 2 inputs or 6. Kind of sucks.

Yes I was idling, then cruised up to 3000 in 2nd (a/t), then WOT to 6500/7000.

I'm putting in my AFPR in the next hour...you can see how flooded my fuel trims are right now, so maybe setting my trims right will clear things up when I try new pulls tonight. I need more samples though.

 

[spyderturbo007]

Just to clairify, FT's have no impact on WOT operation.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Well, the problem is I need the idle fuel trims to carry over settings to HI and tune from there. I started another thread about this...it's kicking my ass still.

 

[spyderturbo007]

Well, the problem is I need the idle fuel trims to carry over settings to HI and tune from there. I started another thread about this...it's kicking my ass still.

Not true, well at least I never do.

Provided that you have checked all the normal stuff out, like TPS value at WOT, plug gap, leak check, etc. I would just start with a rich baseline tune.

The mathematical baseline for 650's is about -31%. Shoot for about -25% for a starting point.

You might also want to consolidate your threads so it's easier to find all the information.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

-25% definately doesn't run well for me. I'm at 19 psi boost. Especially at idle, where anything leaner than -15% makes the car idle rough and begin to sputter. It idles smooth when I feed it more fuel at -13%. Just based on that I know that what I'm seeing with the idle fuel trims behavior can't be right -- because even if I richen all the way up to +3% or so where it is too rich and the car begins to idle rough, the trims stay maxed. But as soon as the hz raises to cruise levels, the trims begin to behave normally.

Could a front O2 sensor be going bad and causing these types of problems? Or shouldn't that mean the trims should be all wack at cruise and WOT then?

 

[spyderturbo007]

-25% definately doesn't run well for me.

Sorry, I ment to use -25% on the hi throttle map, not the low.

I'm at 19 psi boost. Especially at idle, where anything leaner than -15% makes the car idle rough and begin to sputter. It idles smooth when I feed it more fuel at -13%.

I'm running 650's and my low settings are between -13% and -8%......Figure that one out. All cars are different when it comes to FT's.

Could a front O2 sensor be going bad and causing these types of problems? Or shouldn't that mean the trims should be all wack at cruise and WOT then?

It depends. After my last mechanic decided to beat the shit out of my O2 sensor with a hammer, my FT's were all over the place. Sometimes they would behave, for a couple of minutes, at cruise....but would always max at idle. It was an intermitent thing with my busted O2 sensor. Sometimes it would work at cruise, sometimes not.....but it never functioned properly at idle. I know that's an extreme situation, but I just wanted to show you that it is possible for the O2 sensor to work intermittently.

You didn't happen to beat your O2 sensor up with a hammer. What does your logger show your O2 voltage as??? Wait, is there another thread about this??? I could have sworn that I just replied to something like this........

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Yeah you replied to another of my posts about my O2...it always shows 20 for front and rear on my logger for some reason, I don't think it's working. No, mine isn't beat up but it is 10 years old and never changed I don't think. I ordered a new front O2 today, so I'll see if that helps. Your problems before sound like mine now.

Check out this new log...my logger is lame and doesn't sample more than 3.5/sec no matter how many variables I choose. I changed to hotter BPR7ES plugs today to fix misfires:

2nd gear pull, 19psi.

Time STFT LTFT RPM Timing

11/9/2006 23:39 17 12 876 7
11/9/2006 23:39 17 12 1204 26
11/9/2006 23:39 15 11 2152 27
11/9/2006 23:39 12 11 2572 27
11/9/2006 23:39 8 11 2644 24
11/9/2006 23:39 4 11 2844 24
11/9/2006 23:39 0 11 3100 24
11/9/2006 23:39 -3 11 3160 11
11/9/2006 23:39 0 11 4336 10
11/9/2006 23:39 0 11 5084 14
11/9/2006 23:39 0 11 5764 18
11/9/2006 23:39 0 11 6368 21
11/9/2006 23:39 0 11 6808 34
11/9/2006 23:39 2 11 4336 33


Your settings are similar to mine so I think I'm in the ballpark. Maybe add a couple % at 4000/4500. Right now I am LO -13% across, HI 20% across. I'll be going with Stage3 keydiver in a couple months so all I'll have to do is fine tune then.

 

[spyderturbo007]

What logger program are you using?

That log looks good. I would say that you can yank out another percent or two from 5k up. When does your turbo spool? That timing drop to 10 degrees at 4300rpm looks a little late so it could be knock, but I don't know if automatics spool later than manuals or not. I wouldn't see why, but you never know.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Using OBDGauge on Palm IIIxe. My turbo spool at about 2900/3000 I think.

I'll do a couple more pulls and see if they give consistent readings. Once my new O2 goes in next week I'll be able to see if my trim issues is due to a bad sensor.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Another pull to compare:

Time STFT LTFT RPM Timing

11/10/2006 21:20 17 12 844 9
11/10/2006 21:20 17 11 2228 24
11/10/2006 21:20 10 11 2484 27
11/10/2006 21:20 3 11 2760 28
11/10/2006 21:20 -2 11 2160 28
11/10/2006 21:20 3 11 1976 28
11/10/2006 21:20 7 11 2156 26
11/10/2006 21:20 10 11 2780 19
11/10/2006 21:20 1 11 3404 11
11/10/2006 21:20 0 11 4144 9
11/10/2006 21:20 0 11 4768 12
11/10/2006 21:20 0 11 5452 16
11/10/2006 21:20 0 11 6028 19
11/10/2006 21:20 0 11 6292 38
11/10/2006 21:20 0 11 5960 37
11/10/2006 21:20 0 12 5308 34
11/10/2006 21:20 0 12 3728 33
11/10/2006 21:20 0 12 3612 33
11/10/2006 21:20 0 12 3396 33
11/10/2006 21:20 0 12 3268 33
11/10/2006 21:20 0 12 3160 33
11/10/2006 21:20 0 12 3056 33
11/10/2006 21:20 0 12 2972 33
11/10/2006 21:20 0 12 2880 33
11/10/2006 21:20 0 12 2812 33
11/10/2006 21:20 0 12 2944 33
11/10/2006 21:20 2 12 2784 33
11/10/2006 21:20 0 12 2680 33

I need a better logger so I can get more samples. But I think this second pull confirms I need a bit more fuel around 4000. I also need to go WOT earlier apparently, rather than near 3000.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

I added a couple % more fuel at 4000. 1st gear 2nd gear pull:

Time STFT LTFT RPM Timing

11/13/2006 0:08 17 12 928 8
11/13/2006 0:08 17 12 924 10
11/13/2006 0:08 17 12 928 7
11/13/2006 0:08 17 12 928 9
11/13/2006 0:08 17 12 916 9
11/13/2006 0:08 17 12 932 10
11/13/2006 0:08 17 12 928 11
11/13/2006 0:08 17 12 944 15
11/13/2006 0:08 16 12 2272 24
11/13/2006 0:08 10 12 2572 27
11/13/2006 0:08 3 12 2536 28
11/13/2006 0:08 0 12 2052 27
11/13/2006 0:08 3 12 1968 27
11/13/2006 0:08 1 12 1740 26
11/13/2006 0:08 5 12 2352 25
11/13/2006 0:08 0 12 3896 12....1st
11/13/2006 0:08 0 12 6820 23
11/13/2006 0:08 0 12 4708 12....2nd
11/13/2006 0:08 0 12 5484 15
11/13/2006 0:08 0 12 6212 20
11/13/2006 0:08 0 12 6748 22
11/13/2006 0:08 0 12 4184 33

 

[spyderturbo007]

I need a better logger so I can get more samples.

Do you get anymore samples when you drop STFT and LTFT?

I added a couple % more fuel at 4000. 1st gear 2nd gear pull:

Looks great! I would like to see some mores samples, but looking at your minimum and maximum timing we can assume that everything is OK in the middle.

Do you have head studs? I think it might be time to up the boost.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

I tried removing the trim variables, but still only 3.6/sec. I even went into OBDGauge options to make sure it only records the variables being displayed. Still 3.6. I'm thinking this has something to do with the PalmIIIxe running it, which is basically the oldest Palm you can use I think. I'll email obdlogger.com and ask him what's up with that.

Yeah I have arp studs and metal head gasket. I think I'm running 19psi right now, I'll turn it up another 1 or 2 and see what happens. I hope the 1G bov can take that without leaking.

 

[spyderturbo007]

Before I got my m130, I was using an m105 and had no problems getting 10 samples/sec.

Anyway, before you turn up the boost, make another pull and add airflow to your log. That way we can look at the air mass increase when you up the boost. There isn't any reason to up the boost, if you aren't getting a proportional increase in flow.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

My airflow doesn't read for some reason.

Tried PalmStein this time since it samples faster than obdgauge. Sucks I cant export and can only see frame by frame, but here's what I have on 1st/2nd gear pull from a roll. I wanted to try another pull with more samples before turning up boost. Still at 19psi:





RPM -- Timing

2016 28
2008 28
2004 28
2020 27
2120 26
2212 26
2264 24
2348 25
2420 25
2476 24
2568 23
2672 22
2756 20
2888 19
3140 17....WOT 1st
4592 -2
5548 16
6240 21
6760 22
6980 23
6892 -1
5532 -2
4812 12...2nd
5004 13
5196 14
5352 14
5556 16
5720 17
5896 18
6072 20
6220 20
6356 20
6508 20
6596 20
6712 20
6832 21
6784 -3
4544 33
4352 33
4228 33
4124 33
4072 33
3940 33
3880 33


I think it looks pretty good. Timing was never pulled. Logging a/t's is tricky I think since the gear changes are so quick and boost stays constant. Long gears is kind of a pain...2nd takes me over 80 easy. Maybe I should do this on a highway on-ramp at night so I can go a bit into 3rd.

I feel that's it's safe to try 21 psi now.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Ok, I set it to 21 psi, however it bleeds off a bit down to 19.5 in the high end of the rpm band.

RPM / Timing

1804 26....WOT
4532 12....1st
5452 13
6124 19
6772 20
7148 20
7216 -3
5988 -2
5152 9....2nd
4984 12
5168 12
5352 13
5516 14
5720 16
5896 17
6064 18
6212 16
6368 18
6540 18
6700 19
6820 19
6928 20
6264 38


I'm going to add +2% at 6200 and see if that cures my knock and gives me higher timing up top.

Spyder, how does this compare to my log above at 19 psi? Notice that my peak timing is 22/23 there without any knock. If I'm understanding this right, higher psi doesn't necessarily mean more power if I'm at lower peak timing right? So if I can tune the knock out at 21 psi and get my timing back up to 22/23 I should be squeezing more power from the extra 2 psi of boost. Is my logic correct? Thanks.

 

[spyderturbo007]

Spyder, how does this compare to my log above at 19 psi? Notice that my peak timing is 22/23 there without any knock. If I'm understanding this right, higher psi doesn't necessarily mean more power if I'm at lower peak timing right? So if I can tune the knock out at 21 psi and get my timing back up to 22/23 I should be squeezing more power from the extra 2 psi of boost. Is my logic correct? Thanks.

The log looks good except for the point that you highlighted. I favor airflow increases over timing, but I have never seen dyno proof as to which is better. I know that Andy runs insane boost and has his timing capped at 12 degrees, so I highly doubt that 1 or 2 degrees of timing is going to offset the additional flow.

It's really hard to say with your setup because we can't see airflow. If your actual flow didn't increase with the pressure increase, the additional timing would be better. But if airflow increased with the corresponding pressure increase, I would leave the boost alone. Personally, I would go with higher boost over higher timing. Remember the stock map for anything over 2.1g/rev is capped at 16 degrees.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Ok, I'm reading airflow, however at idle it says 0.45 or so, then if I give some gas in neutral it goes up to 6.5. How should I be interpreting this variable?

I'll have to re-read some tuning tech guides to understand the 2.1g/rev and 16 degree part. Thanks for helping me out with this stuff. You should get more rep for it. I see someone's giving you some.

EDIT: OBD Gauge isn't reading Airflow. PalmStein is reading something under Airflow, but it reads like I said above -- I'm not sure if that is reliable since I thought Airflow is supposed to be measured in lbs/min?