Mid engine 420A???

[starfish]

After reading the question about the AWD 420A,I was wondering if anybody has tried to do a mid engine fabrication with a 420A.

 

[96 420a-t]

Dont know if it has been done but from when i was looking into it i found it was deffinately possible. With a custom roll cage and rear subframe and quite a bit of money it can be done.

I however lack the funds and fabrication skills so i quickly abandoned the project.

 

[Liltazz803]

Theres an awd 420a????

 

[jayson427]

No awd 420a but there are a few rwd ones.

 

[DJ Raydiate]

It can be done. Over on Build Threads there are a couple of fwd to mid engine conversions. The main thing would be the cooling, one would have to find a way to get more airflow to the engine to keep it cool. This could be done many ways as well. There was a guy doing a mid engine 4g but I can't remember off hand where that one is.

Edit: Found it http://www.orldsm.com/showthread.php?14802-quot-Mid-quot-Life-Crisis&highlight=mid

 

[91-GS]

That's more of a "rear engine" car since the engine is right over the rear axle. Not sure if a true "mid engine" is possible with DSM engine/transaxle.

Here is a twin 4G63 engine DSM. Kinda gives you an idea of how it will look like after the engine is moved.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fwOz6m9uUI&src_vid=0juk4vdMl-U&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_313867[/ame]

As far as cooling goes, one could remove rear triangular windows and use the openings (via scoops, for example) to duct outside air to one or two radiators that will be located at an angle around where hatch glass would be. Instead of glass there should be louvers in the opening. The louvers would allow air to pass through, yet keep things like rain or debris out of the new engine compartment.

 

[DJ Raydiate]

As far as cooling goes, one could remove rear triangular windows and use the openings (via scoops, for example) to duct outside air to one or two radiators that will be located at an angle around where hatch glass would be. Instead of glass there should be louvers in the opening. The louvers would allow air to pass through, yet keep things like rain or debris out of the new engine compartment.

That's exactly how I would have done it. I would leave the radiator up front though. The rear glass would be lexan or something similar so louvers could be heat stamped into the plastic and cut out.

Your right about the rear engine as well. One could however have the 420a sit longitude inside and use a different transaxle. Chrysler has a longitude/fwd trans that could work for mid engine. The bad thing about that though is they have had high fail rates. On the 300m forums, they say that you can get stronger internals to fix that problem (I forget the actual trans number right now but I'll find it later)

One could also use an inverted vw trans.

 

[91-GS]

With the engine sitting long way with the car, will there be enough room inside?

It is possible to do something like that if passenger seat was removed and the engine was moved over some. With the engine sitting there it is possible to use 'stock' transmission as well and have an AWD by changing CV shafts to driveshafts so they can reach front and rear differentials.

How much can an engine be tilted and still work fine? Was thinking that one can tilt or twist the engine (almost as if there was too much torque and it twisted the motor mounts) so the pistons are at an angle toward the center of the car. That way some weight is moved forward, allowing for different weight distribution.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

That's more of a "rear engine" car since the engine is right over the rear axle. Not sure if a true "mid engine" is possible with DSM engine/transaxle.

Here is a twin 4G63 engine DSM. Kinda gives you an idea of how it will look like after the engine is moved.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fwO...-U&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_313867

As far as cooling goes, one could remove rear triangular windows and use the openings (via scoops, for example) to duct outside air to one or two radiators that will be located at an angle around where hatch glass would be. Instead of glass there should be louvers in the opening. The louvers would allow air to pass through, yet keep things like rain or debris out of the new engine compartment.

How the heck does that even work?? And why would you want two 4g's to headach about

 

[91-GS]

How the heck does that even work?? And why would you want two 4g's to headach about

They are both auto and tuned to be identical. And because racecar

 

[DJ Raydiate]

With the engine sitting long way with the car, will there be enough room inside?

It is possible to do something like that if passenger seat was removed and the engine was moved over some. With the engine sitting there it is possible to use 'stock' transmission as well and have an AWD by changing CV shafts to driveshafts so they can reach front and rear differentials.

How much can an engine be tilted and still work fine? Was thinking that one can tilt or twist the engine (almost as if there was too much torque and it twisted the motor mounts) so the pistons are at an angle toward the center of the car. That way some weight is moved forward, allowing for different weight distribution.

OK, I'll go ahead and come forward with this. I have been researching this for quite awhile now.

I have not measured the 420a, but I have done some measurements
The engine I used ( just for reference ) was a Chevy 350 to see what kind of room one would be working with. With the right trans axle, the front of pulleys will fall right behind the center console. I think for room, just go ahead and get rid of the stock seats and get something thinner. The way the new firewall would be shaped, it would start right where the door closes on the b-pillar and have to come forward at an angle towards the center console. One could even mod the console to give a little more room if needed. with that being said, I would think that there may be room for the 420a to sit long ways.

The only thing that would be needed on the engine is the alt. I would hope that if one were to take on a project such as this, they would go ahead and do the MR2 power steering pump mod instead of trying to get custom lines made and running them all over the car.

I don't know about the reliability of a tilted engine because of the oil level inside would be tilted as well. I've never tried it so I don't know.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

They are both auto and tuned to be identical. And because racecar

Yeah the tuned to be identixal is the hard part.

Okay so isnthat 2 auto fwd? And each controls it's own set of axels? Seems very hard..

 

[91-GS]

The guy who posted the video gave little more info about the car in the "comments" section:

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Weird..

 

[Colt4G63 also]

That thing must weigh 5000 pounds. Why the hell does anyone want two engines pushing a combined 800 horsepower, to run in the twelves? Not that there's anything wrong with two 4G63s getting married. If that's what they want to do, more power to them.

 

[DJ Raydiate]

I thought it was kind of cool. It reminded me of playing the first grand turismo with the twin engine Pikes Peak Suzuki.(showing my age )

 

[miliman13]

Holy hell!!! WTFlike so many of us, i dedicate lots of money, time patience and research into my set up, i can not begin to imagine the PAIN it takes to do essentially 2X with that crazy, yet cool beast of a car.

 

[Liltazz803]

Holy hell!!! WTFlike so many of us, i dedicate lots of money, time patience and research into my set up, i can not begin to imagine the PAIN it takes to do essentially 2X with that crazy, yet cool beast of a car.

Around how much money have you put into your car?

 

[1G Eclipse94928]

Around how much money have you put into your car?

one million $

 

[91-GS]

That car could not go over 12 since he did not have a roll cage in it. Track rules won't allow it.

This thread has kinda gotten off topic, so let's talk more about a mid engine 420a. Any suggestions?

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Why do you wanna do a 420A at
All if your going to mid engine it and do all this custom fab.. And in the end all you are is a neon.

 

[WhiteVoid]

That car could not go over 12 since he did not have a roll cage in it. Track rules won't allow it.

This thread has kinda gotten off topic, so let's talk more about a mid engine 420a. Any suggestions?

It would depend on the track, there was a guy around the track close to me that was running mid 9s before they finally told him he had to put a roll cage in. As for the mid engine, what would be the benefit of doing it? As far as I'm aware mid engine cars are built for better handling. Would a mid engine dsm really handle better than its fwd or awd counterparts?

 

[DJ Raydiate]

As for the mid engine, what would be the benefit of doing it? As far as I'm aware mid engine cars are built for better handling. Would a mid engine dsm really handle better than its fwd or awd counterparts?

I don't think it would handle better but it would definitely be different. I have read that the right/left is just about 50/50 and front to rear is about 60/40. Now if you just move the engine/trans to the rear , you should have something like a 40/60 front/rear. One would have to get the suspension dialed in right to make up for this. If anything you could have a fun little drift car.

Now lets use the 420a mated to an unknown trans having it set long ways. At this point you have to figure out what the new front/rear ratio is and set it up how you like.

Both of these are just ruffly speaking and using the assumption that one made a new cargo area out of the old engine bay.

That being said, with a project such as this, it would be beneficial to have access to corner scales and a full car scale. Once one knows the true f/r and l/r weight ratios, one could make it as close to 50/50 all around the car.

 

[91-GS]

For a corner scale easiest thing to do is to get a bottle jack and install an oil pressure gauge on it. Knowing the pressure inside and some basic math will allow you to calculate the weight that the jack is holding/lifting. If you have a 2G shell, get some gym weights (enough to replicate weight of the engine) and move them around 'till you find the "sweet spot". Then figure out how to mount the engine there.

 

[DJ Raydiate]

I didn't ever think of the bottle jack thing. I would have just tried to find some cheap scales for it, the kind that D.O.T uses for side of road weighing. But the bottle jack thing is even cheaper .

I think the mounting of the engine would have to start at the trans. Once one knows what transmission they would be using ( either longitude/latitude ) then the engine could be placed.

It would be easier to use the 420a engine/trans combo to convert it to rear engine. But the real fun is making it a Mid Engine longitude set up. By measuring from strut tower to tower, one could find the center point of the vehicle and then find the center point of trans of choice whether it be VW,Porsche, Audi, Etc. then line that up. Next one would find the center point of the hubs and line it up with the output of the trans. Once all of this is known, the fab work for the mounting process can begin.

Hopefully before someone cuts into the trunk, they would have enough knowledge to weld a jig inside the car to hold everything straight before removing all of that metal.